tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post114927710489965560..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: lay the table / set the tablelynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-34398299883906062762021-12-31T17:01:27.707+00:002021-12-31T17:01:27.707+00:00Hi Petra, please see this post: https://separatedb...Hi Petra, please see this post: https://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2008/09/stemware-and-other-wares.htmllynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-39934046802273098382021-12-31T15:17:37.128+00:002021-12-31T15:17:37.128+00:00Jumping in -- this is a pretty old discussion -- b...Jumping in -- this is a pretty old discussion -- but (though I'm neither English nor American) I missed an expression: cutlery is OK, place settings are OK, but what about flatware? Is that outdated?Petra1945https://www.blogger.com/profile/06559677258676647710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-26080604542333184632020-05-22T21:02:02.911+01:002020-05-22T21:02:02.911+01:00In "Code to Zero" British author Ken Fol...In "Code to Zero" British author Ken Follett has his American character in 1958 America 'lay' the table.....I had to look it up!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-87283774490168942022015-08-24T13:55:14.012+01:002015-08-24T13:55:14.012+01:00(BrE, 60+, middle-class)
I am inclined to agree w...(BrE, 60+, middle-class) <br />I am inclined to agree with a couple of previous posts - 'the table' is not a physical table but a 'setting' at which we eat. Thus we may lay out the appropriate table settings for use at each meal. Cutlery is sold in multiples of 'place settings'.<br />We sometimes use the phrase 'at table', in the context of the situation during dinner - 'Don't discuss sex, politics or money at table; always use a napkin at table'... it's old-fashioned and has almost been replaced by 'at dinner/ at the table' for literal-minded listeners.<br />Stokey Sue, I'm with you there about napkins - I had to have my own napkin ring (and napkins) when at boarding school. Of course, the very grandest families have clean table linen every day and so may not understand the concept. biochemistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90654719848252587872014-06-05T17:00:07.708+01:002014-06-05T17:00:07.708+01:00Coming very late to this party, I would never set/...Coming very late to this party, I would never set/lay the table with plates for a hot meal, as being British I expect the plates to be heated and brought out to be used warm.<br />Nothing to do with linguistics, just part of the British obsession with hot food and drink; even my partner’s French relatives don’t worry about hot plates.<br />But both my French OH and I were brought up with cloth napkins, Each family member had a personal napkin ring to identify their napkin for the next meal; I have a collection of French and English silver rings, given as presents to new babies in both families. I am bemused by the fashion for sets of six identical ones, as they seem to me impractical.<br />Great blog David!<br />Stokey Suenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-83862120568864288972014-03-29T23:31:22.471+00:002014-03-29T23:31:22.471+00:00The first time I realised how different US Englis...The first time I realised how different US English could be was when talking to an American young woman (we would have said 'girl' back then) who had been teaching English in Tunisia with a British textbook. She had found <i>lay the table</i> hilarious, presumably seeing it as some weird sexual fetish.<br /><br />As for Albert Welch's suggestion, if it ever meant 'lay out the meal' it certainly doesn't now, and it didn't when I was a little boy in the 1940s. We lay the table <b>before</b> there's anybody sitting there and <b>before</b> we put any food on it.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-15399309104894735712014-03-29T11:34:49.419+00:002014-03-29T11:34:49.419+00:00This is speculation, but is it possible that table...This is speculation, but is it possible that table here refers to the meal itself, in the same sense as board refers to food in "room and board"?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02138260302522477243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90962413849872046512011-10-26T21:39:25.575+01:002011-10-26T21:39:25.575+01:00Everything about language is remarkable, Anonymous...Everything about language is remarkable, Anonymous.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-84986978866953928082011-10-26T21:28:25.575+01:002011-10-26T21:28:25.575+01:00I know I'm happening on this long after you fi...I know I'm happening on this long after you first posted the thought, so perhaps you've changed your view, but I'm not sure I understand why you would find (or at least would have found) it remarkable that in setting the table, you're moving something other than the table. I've always thought of it in the same context as "set the timer," "set the ignition timing," "set one's expectations," etc., as meaning essentially "cause to be in an appropriate state." So if you are baking a cake, you set the timer before you put it in the oven and you set the table before you serve it to your guests. (In each case, the antecedent of "it" is the cake, not the timer or the table.) The first "set" puts the timer in a condition such that it will sound when you want it to, and the second puts the table in a condition such that it will appear as you want it to when your guests sit down.<br /><br />I, a New Yorker, understand "set" in the sense of "put down," but wouldn't normally use it except with large, heavy objects that would thereafter be hard to move. (Perhaps this is based on the similarity of "settle" -- you can set something on a table if, once there, it settles into place.) Even then, though, I would probably follow it with "down." So, for example, I might tell a moving team carrying a heavy piece of furniture that they could just set it down in the corner. "Set," if used with something small and light, would sound like a regionalism to me. Perhaps someone in the South might say they've set a stapler on a desk or a purse/pocketbook/handbag (q.v.) on a shelf, but it wouldn't sound nearly as natural to me as setting the table.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-15679348053300901752011-04-02T08:58:48.222+01:002011-04-02T08:58:48.222+01:00I know this is an old discussion, but all the same...I know this is an old discussion, but all the same:<br /><br />I think the etymology of the words 'lay' and 'set' stems from the action of 'LAYing out' the table (as you would a page with text), i.e. placing something according to a pattern or system, or 'SETting up' something, i.e. preparing it for use.<br /><br />Then again, I might be totally wrong here. :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-15862870137678398122009-09-17T11:12:27.828+01:002009-09-17T11:12:27.828+01:00I'm surprised that "set the table" i...I'm surprised that "set the table" is seen as American usage. It's what I grew up saying, though "lay the table" is a perfectly familiar expression too.<br />Kate (Derby, UK)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-59062728084601937832009-06-17T09:55:01.398+01:002009-06-17T09:55:01.398+01:00I agree with anon in that "set" probably...I agree with anon in that "set" probably comes from "set up," as in "set up (arrange) the table."ff6mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-23771669062983523072008-05-11T14:33:00.000+01:002008-05-11T14:33:00.000+01:00As a child growing up in England just after the wa...As a child growing up in England just after the war we always had drinks on the table. The drink was always tea. Cups, saucers, tea pot (with tea cosey) sugar and milk jug accompanied every single meal. This happened in every home I went to right up until the late 1960s.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90826975442362891862008-04-17T19:14:00.000+01:002008-04-17T19:14:00.000+01:00Hi Peter,1. I don't have the same intuition as you...Hi Peter,<BR/><BR/>1. I don't have the same intuition as you do about 'I laid/set the table with cutlery' (sounds fine to me with or without contrastive stress)...so I can't say that I can find an answer there.<BR/><BR/>2. Interesting.<BR/><BR/>3. I think there are probably regional/class/generational variations at work here...but I don't know what they all are!lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-46565776645324057562008-04-17T17:39:00.000+01:002008-04-17T17:39:00.000+01:001. Transitivity: A set of properties that kind of ...1. Transitivity: A set of properties that kind of describe some of what you talk about here. Do you think that the affectedness of patient (<I>table</I> in this case) is strong enough to have <I>I laid the table with cutlery</I>? That sounds weird to me (unless <I>with cutlery</I> has contrastive stress). Do you think that the (in)definiteness of those items that are put onto the table is a good way to talk about your intuition about there being no cover term for those items? Would be interesting if definiteness was important in this "alternation".<BR/><BR/>2. Aforementioned items: In my family, there exist two parallel sets of practices for <B>laying the table</B>. The more common includes only laying out cutlery, the less common is a more expansive role, which includes cutlery, mats to protect the table from heated serving dishes, wine glasses and paper napkins. Plates are put on the table only if all the diners are to be allowed to serve themselves (rare). Somewhat peculiarly, I think that once <B>the table is laid</B>, <B>the places are set</B> (but not laid).<BR/><BR/>3. Drinks: I have the opposite experience with drinks at dinner. UK = mandatory drinks, unless soup is all we are having; US = infrequently drink, more frequent if something other than water is available, mandatory milk, OJ and coffee at my wife's paternal grandparents' breakfasts (and grits...).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15091878725089200945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-50844216006339596822008-01-11T09:57:00.000+00:002008-01-11T09:57:00.000+00:00Thanks. It is surely obvious for you, but it's not...Thanks. It is surely obvious for you, but it's not so obvious for many people as I have been asking that question many times (in UK) and everyone have been telling me there is no difference at all. Thank you for your help.marysia i bartekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03235271076068736800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-7090951339876887312008-01-10T22:25:00.000+00:002008-01-10T22:25:00.000+00:00Yes, the difference is BrE (lay) vs. AmE (set). T...Yes, the difference is BrE (lay) vs. AmE (set). That's the theme of this blog...lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-25874032613330058442008-01-10T21:58:00.000+00:002008-01-10T21:58:00.000+00:00Sorry to ask stupid question but what exactly is t...Sorry to ask stupid question but what exactly is the difference between "lay a table" and "set a table"? Is it American English v. British English? Or something else?marysia i bartekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03235271076068736800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-63489225646489409392007-11-03T22:28:00.000+00:002007-11-03T22:28:00.000+00:00June, do you really think it's wise to leave your ...June, do you really think it's wise to leave your e-mail address on a blog like this? <BR/><BR/>I don't know anyone who leaves their table set all the time, so I can't answer your question--the topic is kind of outside what I do here...lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-80617798193590587542007-11-03T21:11:00.000+00:002007-11-03T21:11:00.000+00:00Hi, I have question which has been in debating fo...Hi,<BR/> I have question which has been in debating for the past couple of weeks.<BR/> Why do some people have their table set for dinner at all time? even if they are not dinning?<BR/>I think this is tacky..please let me know what you all think out there and is there a reason why this is being done?<BR/>i can be reached at regi@tmo.blackberry.net<BR/>Thanks !!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-84251320384994549472007-06-04T19:58:00.000+01:002007-06-04T19:58:00.000+01:00Being British I can only offer my advice from expe...Being British I can only offer my advice from experience.<BR/>When we ate at my nan's as children, we always ate at the dinner and always to silver service.<BR/>We were generally berated from using the term serviette as this was more often used in regards to a paper napkin used at picnics or fast food restaurant's.<BR/>We also always had a drink with a meal, as do most British families.<BR/><BR/>And we lay the table, use toilet paper, clean up spills with kitchen paper, visit the lavatory or bathroom (bathroom usually in restaurant's, or if the sink is in the same room as the toilet). Dry our pots with a kitchen towel.<BR/><BR/>Some people set a table with plates and allow people to help themselves to servings, or servings are made at the table.<BR/><BR/>More commonly, in my experience, we lay the table (cutlery,napkins, glasses) then the food is taken to the table on the plate.<BR/>Being an anal retentive cook I would absolutely hate for people to have to scoop food out on to plates.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-83306141569134987732007-05-09T09:39:00.000+01:002007-05-09T09:39:00.000+01:00I believe there was a time the table was really se...I believe there was a time the table was really set/layed for the meal and dismantled afterwards, consisting of trestles and a tabletop.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-7537177118712413602007-03-13T21:00:00.000+00:002007-03-13T21:00:00.000+00:00I'm not sure why not serving drinks with meals wou...I'm not sure why not serving drinks with meals would be associated with frugality. Surely tap water is as frugal as it gets? I never have a meal without a glass of water, which is how I was raised (Canadian). Fancier meals get wine of course. Fast-food type meals get pop.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-27787584774780960402007-01-03T19:51:00.000+00:002007-01-03T19:51:00.000+00:00The word serviette is unknown in AmE, and it takes...The word <i>serviette</i> is unknown in AmE, and it takes a great effort of mind to use it instead of <i>napkin</i>.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-22482090166419533432006-12-31T15:48:00.000+00:002006-12-31T15:48:00.000+00:00I was interested that you used “napkin” rather tha...I was interested that you used “napkin” rather than “serviette” to describe the cloth placed at each place setting to wipe your hands and mouth. The former word was used by the upper classes and the second adopted by the aspiring middle classes. Simularily the upper classes used the word “lavatory” and the lower orders “toilet “ although nowadays “loo” seems to be universal. French had been the language of the Court and the ruling classes would be fairly fluent in its use, but Napoleonic Wars brought about an aversion to anything French, but presumably this did not filter down the social scale! Nancy Mitford covered this linguistic divide in “U and non-U”. I find it amusing that the lingua franca is now English.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com