tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post115006914845911479..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: irregular verbs: gotten, fit, knitlynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-34375058945632291532019-08-07T13:39:29.781+01:002019-08-07T13:39:29.781+01:00I am very impressed by Unknown's use of 'f...I am very impressed by Unknown's use of 'foist' to head the present-participle phrase 'foist upon Australia'. Lesser linguists would have used 'foisted'. And to be fair, lynneguist, you should acknowledge that Unknown has confessed to a repugnance to the very unfortunate AmE 'gotten', and to a consequent difficulty in exemplifying it. <br />The point about 'where fit is used instead of fitted' is also spot on<br />Sophie Johnsonhttp://www.englishgrammartutor.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9622769608206439102019-02-19T12:21:06.400+00:002019-02-19T12:21:06.400+00:00I'm not sure why I've approved this commen...I'm not sure why I've approved this comment, which shows a shocking willingness to make things up. No one says "I gotten".lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-62607546877854796962019-02-19T12:15:28.178+00:002019-02-19T12:15:28.178+00:00Oh dear. Apologies. Maybe I shouldn’t make derogat...Oh dear. Apologies. Maybe I shouldn’t make derogatory comments so late at night. As a writer, I am usually more careful (and pedantic) with the written word. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16532085832573458479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-43129353119944815892019-02-19T12:11:10.755+00:002019-02-19T12:11:10.755+00:00I think people have just become too lazy to use mo...I think people have just become too lazy to use more appropriate words such as received or acquired. “I received a letter yesterday.” AmE tend to say, “ I gotten a letter yesterday” It hurts my brain and sensibilities just to think of examples for ‘gotten’. The one which causes me most grief is American television advertisements foist upon Australia, where fit is used instead of fitted. “A powerful motor fit into a small casing” instead of “...fitted into a small casing.” I find it an abomination. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16532085832573458479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-25542829450822726902013-12-31T13:37:43.737+00:002013-12-31T13:37:43.737+00:00I've just been listening more carefully than b...I've just been listening more carefully than before to Ethel Waters 1925 re-recording of her 1921 hit <i>Down Home Blues</i>. Somebody — quite possibly Ethel herself — made considerable improvements to the lyrics, with some delightful variation on <i>had, got</i> and <i>gotten</i>. Thus:<br /><br /><i>Woke up this morning, the day was dawning, <br />My loving daddy was not about <br />And he's got that loving' that always makes me shout<br />And I hope he comes back before it all gives out<br /><br />Now he was no true man, but then a new man<br />Could never tempt me or make me glad<br />Yet I need a good man, I mean a good man, bad<br />'Cause I ain't been gotten, that don't mean I can't be had</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-50819724910836210092013-12-04T12:22:56.248+00:002013-12-04T12:22:56.248+00:00No, it should be 'that' because it's a...No, it should be 'that' because it's a restrictive relative clause, and restrictive relative clauses can take 'that' in both British and American.<br /><br />And the fact that the sentence (a) was a sentence and (b) ended with a preposition provides conclusive evidence that sentences can end with prepositions. <br /><br />I recommend David Marsh's (the Guardian Style Guide editor) discussion of 'zombie rules': http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/sep/30/10-grammar-rules-you-can-forget lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-89261414776348256252013-12-04T11:00:52.711+00:002013-12-04T11:00:52.711+00:00"one of those American things that the Britis..."one of those American things that the British often express real distaste for"<br /><br />The word "that" should be "which". <br /><br />In fact the phrase itself should be "one of those American things for which the British often express real distaste" given that sentences should never end with a preposition.Alex Hoynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-26676249882170006572013-08-05T16:17:10.755+01:002013-08-05T16:17:10.755+01:00Regarding "had gotten", that strikes me ...Regarding "had gotten", that strikes me as a inappropriate mix of registers. Using "I had [past participle]" puts it in a register where it's more appropriate to say "received" (or "bought"). The verb form is too fancy of the informal register of "got".eknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-91525051789533609862012-09-09T17:28:00.876+01:002012-09-09T17:28:00.876+01:00For this Brit, They got to leave means 'they e...For this Brit, <i>They got to leave</i> means 'they eventually left', implying: <br />• possibly that they were allowed to leave<br />• more likely that they managed to leave though their own efforts.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-54509493477546419222012-09-09T15:12:37.036+01:002012-09-09T15:12:37.036+01:00As an American my first impression of "they g...As an American my first impression of "they got to leave" is that they were allowed to leave (perhaps when others weren't given such permission).<br /><br />For example, a child might say to his or her parent, "That's not fair -- so and so got to do that!"David Laurihttp://www.davidlauri.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-40347678569365853832012-09-04T12:39:52.218+01:002012-09-04T12:39:52.218+01:00Anonymous
Yes, that would translate into BrE — in...Anonymous<br /><br />Yes, that would translate into BrE — in our sense of <i>have got</i>:<br /><br /><i>He offered to fetch me a coffee but I'd already got one</i><br /><br />Can you think of an example with <b>uninterrupted</b> <i>had gotten</i>? Could you say something like this?<br /><br /><i>I'd gotten a coffee for him so I didn't offer to make tea</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-32187044763879270762012-09-04T10:37:39.649+01:002012-09-04T10:37:39.649+01:00I think it's a coincidence. I don't think ...I think it's a coincidence. I don't think most Americans don't use "had got" as a past of "have got" either (at least I don't), but there is nothing strange about "had gotten".<br /><br />For example, you could say "He asked me to get him coffee, even though I had already gotten it."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-57258605561028352662012-08-02T00:49:14.222+01:002012-08-02T00:49:14.222+01:00For reasons I've never really understood I — a...For reasons I've never really understood I — along with many other British speakers — generally avoid <i>had got</i> as the past of <i>have got</i>. Nobody on this thread has used the form <i>had gotten</i>. Is that a coincidence, or is there an avoidance of the form similar our British prejudice?David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-87895613765997635682012-08-01T22:53:20.368+01:002012-08-01T22:53:20.368+01:00Thank you for your reply, Lynne. I see what you m...Thank you for your reply, Lynne. I see what you mean. I think I have now gotten the point of 'gotten'.<br /><br />(May I suggest that you could clarify your original article by translating 'I've gotten a new hat' as 'I have obtained a new hat' instead of 'I obtained a new hat'.)Grahamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-73740748528041403502012-07-24T12:40:24.163+01:002012-07-24T12:40:24.163+01:00I think I am more likely to use 'knitted' ...I think I am more likely to use 'knitted' as a past tense for bones than for yarn. "I knit a scarf last week." "After breaking his leg, the bones knitted cleanly."Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14644859183662353936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-45050445538504208032012-07-24T12:39:20.163+01:002012-07-24T12:39:20.163+01:00As an American, I think I am more likely to use &#...As an American, I think I am more likely to use 'knitted' as a past tense when talking about bones than when talking about yarn. 'I knit a scarf last week.' 'After breaking his leg, the bones knitted cleanly.'Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14644859183662353936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-40951720741465425562012-06-18T03:02:53.286+01:002012-06-18T03:02:53.286+01:00Graham: Your comment has only come through once, s...Graham: Your comment has only come through once, so perhaps something funny was happening with Blogger at the time.<br /><br />Of course, BrE can distinguish meanings in various ways, but it's also true that many miss the point that AmE is making distinctions in 'got' and 'gotten'. But in the last example, the BrE version doesn't just have fewer words, it's lost some meaning, as it's gone from the present perfect to the simple past tense. These are not completely interchangeable, so I don't think that "They got to leave" and "They've gotten to leave" are exactly the same. <br /><br />In later posts I discuss more about <a href="http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/do-you-havehave-youhave-you-got.html" rel="nofollow">'have got'</a> (I think there's another post about it somewhere, but Blogger is being slow and I've got to go to bed soon!) and about <a href="http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.co.uk/2006/08/present-perfect.html" rel="nofollow">the past versus the perfect</a>.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-74744652127398748242012-06-18T02:45:06.398+01:002012-06-18T02:45:06.398+01:00[Apologies if I've submitted this comment more...[Apologies if I've submitted this comment more than once, but it doesn't seem to be working. Can you not make it come up with a message that says "Thank you for submitting your comment", or something?]<br /><br />Your first recommended article says:<br /><br />"It is generally true that 'gotten' is used for the sense 'obtained; received' ('We've gotten tickets' means 'we acquired tickets') while 'got' is used for the sense 'possessed; owned' ('We've got tickets' means 'we possess tickets'). This distinction cannot be made in British English without using a different word."<br /><br />But that is not true. The distinction is made very simply in British English. Adapting your subsequent example:<br /><br />I've got a new hat = I have a new hat<br />I got a new hat = I obtained a new hat<br /><br />Is the simple formulation 'I got', meaning 'I obtained', really not available to Americans? Do you always have to use the (to my ears) cumbersome formulation 'I've gotten' instead? Surely not! So is there any difference in meaning between 'I got the tickets' and 'I've gotten the tickets'? If not, then why ever use the latter?<br /><br />Similarly, John Lawler quotes David Crystal as follows:<br /><br />"AmE can make such distinctions as the following:<br />'They've got to leave' = 'they must leave' vs<br />'They've gotten to leave' = 'they've managed to leave'."<br /><br />But again this distinction can be made very simply in British English. One can say 'They got to leave', which as far as I can see means exactly the same as 'They've gotten to leave', but is shorter.<br /><br />I've often heard it said that the word 'gotten' is a useful one that we British lost long ago but that you Americans kept. I came to this blog trying to find out exactly what it means, with a view perhaps to begin using it myself. But having read your piece and the articles you link to, it seems to me that if I started saying it, even if I managed to grasp the rules and used it correctly, it would just be a pointless affectation. 'Gotten' doesn't seem to convey any shades of meaning that can't be conveyed more simply using 'got'.<br /><br />... Or does it? Have I missed something here?Grahamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-47311794236053467802011-09-03T21:37:07.660+01:002011-09-03T21:37:07.660+01:00In my line of work, film editing, we are occasiona...In my line of work, film editing, we are occasionally called upon to synchronize the picture and sound elements of various media. Although this process is largely automated nowadays (AmE?) back in the 90's, when we still physically cut the film, it made up the bulk of an assistant editor's workday. We called this "synching the dailies." The past tense of this was always "sunc," as in "I sunc the dailies yesterday." The spelling might be debatable (as of course we wouldn't have much cause to write this) but the usage and pronunciation was universal and non-controversial. No one said "I synched the dailies yesterday." We spontaneously created an irregular verb.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-60915837739698655202011-07-21T03:08:47.044+01:002011-07-21T03:08:47.044+01:00The only reason I know about Fit as in Fitness, at...The only reason I know about Fit as in Fitness, attractive and healthy, was from Unseen Academicals (Pratchett.) I did have to look it up. It seems an awkward usage, but then so much teen/young adult slang does, so that doesn't mean anything. I don't like Hot or Fine either, honestly. <br /><br />I really don't get the issue with gotten. But then, as an Am/Can/E speaker, that is my norm.Zhoenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03515663141425057088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-53533905233555842562010-12-26T09:00:39.517+00:002010-12-26T09:00:39.517+00:00I am American and I agree, "gotten" is a...I am American and I agree, "gotten" is a good word. It means something totally different than "got" sometimes. Althought, I'll admit that when it is combined with modals, I use it interchangeably: "I should have got/gotten it when I was there."<br /><br />As for "dove/dived", I usually say "dived", but sometimes "dove", but "dove" only works for simple past; "dived" is the past participle always: "I should have dived into the pool." "I dived/dove into the pool yesterday."<br /><br />There is one that I won't say: That is "snuck". That's just bad English. I always say "sneaked", but I hear "snuck" more often in American English. <br /><br />I usually say "fit" not "fitted" and "knitted" not "knit". I don't know my logic about this. I don't think I say "treaded"; usually "trod", but I almost never say "tread" in the past tense, but the past participle "trodden" I do say a lot.<br /><br />I've never heard "sended", but I'm sure it's like "brung", "brang", "broughten", "boughten", "snuck", "thunk", "ain't", and so on as uneducated English. Although, even I have to say that I have said "thunk" and "aint" when I want to be humorous, but never formally. Usually in "who would have thunk it?" or "Ain't I a stinker?" It's humorous. It's stylistic.<br /><br />I think we should talk about was/were more because people mess those two up a lot. Well, that's my piece.Nicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-27227896521392129572009-07-13T23:00:36.378+01:002009-07-13T23:00:36.378+01:00The irregular past that I really can't make se...The irregular past that I really can't make sense of is 'dove' as the past tense of 'dive'. In the UK we only say 'dived'.Roshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02669423378438380019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-39651458292318166522009-06-24T17:33:23.901+01:002009-06-24T17:33:23.901+01:00I have to say that I probably wouldn't say &qu...I have to say that I probably wouldn't say "Celeste knitted her brow." As a matter of fact it took an effort to type that. As an obsessive knitter, I frequently find reason to say that I knit (past tense) something, but I almost never say that I knitted something. It's *almost* on a par with saying "casted off". But not quite.<br /><br />I do, though, say things like, I have knitted more than 15 pairs of socks (which I have, probably--I've lost track), or I have knitted nearly a pair of socks this week (I wish! Studying for exams). So there's still a place for 'knitted', and I use 'fitted' analogously.CinnabarsKnitterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07809334492600187002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-31478693593054636962008-05-09T22:57:00.000+01:002008-05-09T22:57:00.000+01:00I just discovered this blog and I had to drop a co...I just discovered this blog and I had to drop a comment on this post! I'm an American who's lived in the UK for about 15 years. Got/gotten was one of the differences I really tripped over when I first arrrived.<BR/><BR/>I remember an poster for a bank that was advertising a spcial offer for new student accounts, with the caption reading something like, "Jane's just got £10!" I thought that was funny, because of course to an American that means "Jane's total net worth is only £10!" A real incentive to bank with that company. :)<BR/><BR/>It wasn't quite so funny a couple of months later when my boss noticed that I'd used "gotten" in a letter to a client. I had never known it was considered ungrammatical in Britspeak, so it was doubly irritating to find out that my boss not only considered this on a par with "ain't", but didn't ever seem to believe that it was perfectly normal in American English.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-54824838996046012662008-04-05T14:45:00.000+01:002008-04-05T14:45:00.000+01:00I find the use of fit instead of fitted in novels ...I find the use of fit instead of fitted in novels I read very annoying. It grates almost as much as the use of adjectives instead of adverbs by modern sports commentators on radio and TV. I thought that the use of fit was a modern trend but, as you point out, it has been around in AmE for some time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com