tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post115565141968509567..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: filet, fillet and the pronunciation of other French borrowingslynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger108125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-8799685179537543702016-07-13T00:13:34.251+01:002016-07-13T00:13:34.251+01:00Not to mention clarinet — French clarinette.Not to mention <i>clarinet</i> — French <i>clarinette</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-25649517274339561232016-07-12T22:02:29.346+01:002016-07-12T22:02:29.346+01:00For the english word bassinet pronounced with the ...For the english word bassinet pronounced with the t, it is quite logical since the french word is actually bassinette with the t sound therefore pronounced in all cases.MEProvencalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00152552953967073296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-23207354633247849952016-07-04T10:13:47.384+01:002016-07-04T10:13:47.384+01:00i say FILLAY and all my friends BULLY me for iti say FILLAY and all my friends BULLY me for itAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-11902409919457544962015-12-19T12:06:38.038+00:002015-12-19T12:06:38.038+00:00I don't really deal in opinions--I try to desc...I don't really deal in opinions--I try to describe facts, or at least profer hypotheses. :)<br /><br /><i>-re</i> is the spelling for various words in BrE that are <i>-er</i> in AmE (not just with <i>-bre</i>, but also <i>centre, manoeuvre,</i> etc.). These go back a long way, and were changed in AmE. <i>Amber</i> is not one of them--the <i>-er</i> spelling seems to have been dominant since the Middle Ages. So if people see a a new spelling <i>Ambre</i> (is this a proper name?) they pronounce it as it is spelled, since it's not one that they've learned as having a spelling that's different from its pronunciation. We sound out new-to-us words.<br /><br />If it is a personal name, then there aren't many precedents for an <i>-er</i> pronunciation for a <i>-re</i> spelling. Instead, people might think about a name like <i>Andre</i>, where the 'e' is pronounced. <br /><br />lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-49385908195811515552015-12-18T21:20:59.077+00:002015-12-18T21:20:59.077+00:00Very informative, thank you. I was curious about ...Very informative, thank you. I was curious about your opinion on words ending in "BRE" which are pronounced as "BER" such as Fibre. I am having difficulties with both English and French speaking people to pronounce and read "Ambre" as Amber...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11314566352229446305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1193525319709233812014-04-22T10:19:06.667+01:002014-04-22T10:19:06.667+01:00. . .'You say tomahto, I say tomayto'. . ..... . .'You say tomahto, I say tomayto'. . . .Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15148747169168592844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90351038996649828002013-12-30T16:35:06.758+00:002013-12-30T16:35:06.758+00:00@MrBleu:
That being said, it's fil-ay, not fi...@MrBleu:<br /><br /><i>That being said, it's fil-ay, not filet. A hard T sounds absurd on a French word</i><br /><br />How do you pronounce "bassinet"? In the US, I've only ever heard it with a pronounced "T", yet it is a recent French loanword -- far more recent than "fillet" or indeed "ballet".vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-58054967050116110642013-12-30T15:04:28.962+00:002013-12-30T15:04:28.962+00:00MrBleu
I have no clue why Australians and Brits p...MrBleu<br /><br /><i>I have no clue why Australians and Brits pretend they don't know the T is silent just like in Ballet.</i><br /><br />That's easily explained. Some words from other languages were initially learned by reading. But <i>ballet</i> was learned initially by people with upper-class and cosmopolitan artistic tastes who absorbed the French pronunciation along (presumably) with the spelling. By the time the written word appeared on English-language playbills, it was pretty widespread in speech.<br /><br />A <i>fillet</i> is something that you can buy in any butcher or fishmonger. Since there's no obvious non-French synonym, I presume that the word filled a niche when new techniques of preparing food carcasses reached us. But there can't have been a critical mass of upper-class cosmopolitan gourmets to establish a pronunciation analogous to <i>ballet</i>. Moreover, the written word could appear in texts that people of moderate literacy would use: cook books, bills of fayre, price lists etc.<br /><br />(Having written this, I looked up <i>fillet</i> in the OED. The word wasn't taken from French butchery, but already existed in English in the sense of 'headband, strip' etc. The earliest recorded uses are 14th century. I suspect that when English first borrowed the word, the final T was still pronounced in French.)<br /><br />Scottish butchers and cooks named another cut by a French name: <i>gigot</i>, pronounced JIGGUT.<br /><br />Ironically, it's the spelling pronunciation that's more democratic, even though illiteracy and oral culture were concentrated in the lower orders.<br /><br />As for FEELAY, yes it's quite often heard at table. But at the butcher's you ask for FILLIT steak.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-80862617312134989692013-12-30T12:52:07.079+00:002013-12-30T12:52:07.079+00:00That being said, it's fil-ay, not filet. A har...<br /><i>That being said, it's fil-ay, not filet. A hard T sounds absurd on a French word</i><br /><br />It may have escaped your notice, but as Lynne has said in the original post, in the UK it is not spelt "filet", but "FILLET", which is quite different. It is used as a verb, too - one fillets a steak, goodness knows what one does with it in the USA.Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-6720369015864418352013-12-30T00:35:34.998+00:002013-12-30T00:35:34.998+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-87891370039608246232013-12-29T09:50:03.468+00:002013-12-29T09:50:03.468+00:00Except that Americans most certainly do not say &q...Except that Americans most certainly do not say "croy-sant". lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-63465383974897100592013-12-29T02:01:12.648+00:002013-12-29T02:01:12.648+00:00I object to anybody saying "we say it like th...I object to anybody saying "we say it like this", or, "you say it like that", or creating any fictional categories to represent fictional groups rather than speaking only for ones self and ones own intonations.<br /><br />I routinely make up words, pronunciations and stresses ... haggling over pronunciation is the self-diddling exercise of choice for the obnoxious. <br /><br />That being said, it's fil-ay, not filet. A hard T sounds absurd on a French word ... I have no clue why Australians and Brits pretend they don't know the T is silent just like in Ballet. MrBleuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13232859606396435933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-65448411799884652222013-12-29T01:57:10.534+00:002013-12-29T01:57:10.534+00:00I love how people who are "one" person o...I love how people who are "one" person of a nation of 320 million say "we" ... and others within a nation of 50 odd million say "we" as well.<br /><br />Not "we" ... "you". <br /><br />"You" in America say "croy-sont".<br /><br />"WE" here in Britain say "Shed-ule."<br /><br />It makes more sense to speak for your own intonation, not mine. MrBleuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13232859606396435933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-25923385374856233182013-06-20T16:48:23.699+01:002013-06-20T16:48:23.699+01:00Note the British rhyme
Trumpeter, what are you so...Note the British rhyme<br /><br /><i>Trumpeter, what are you sounding now?<br />(Is it the call I'm seeking?)<br />"You'll know the call," said the Trumpeter tall,<br />"When my trumpet goes a-speakin'.<br />I'm rousin' 'em up;<br />I'm wakin' 'em up,<br />The tents are astir in the valley,<br />And there's no more sleep with the sun's first peep,<br />For I'm soundin' the old 'Reveille!'"</i><br /><br />... and the American<br /><br /><br /><i>Someday I'm going to murder the bugler <br />Someday they're going to find him dead <br />I'll amputate his reveille and stomp upon it heavily <br />And spend the rest of my life in bed!</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-26872655282151679282012-11-16T06:24:21.776+00:002012-11-16T06:24:21.776+00:00I'm sorry to revive an old old post, but I can...I'm sorry to revive an old old post, but I can't let this go without correction. <br /><br />NO ONE in LA calls it will-SHIRE. If someone told you that, they were joking. It's WILSH-err or WILL-sure. <br /><br />Link to website that has people pronouncing it properly in my name.Anonymous Native Angelenahttp://www.forvo.com/word/wilshire_boulevard/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-58665852398884548822012-10-18T02:02:35.172+01:002012-10-18T02:02:35.172+01:00The reason Americans would say Wilshire wilSHIRE i...The reason Americans would say Wilshire wilSHIRE is because we are taught that the silent e at the end would make the I say its name (eye)Mindynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-47100800486633671102012-08-21T19:36:10.330+01:002012-08-21T19:36:10.330+01:00In Los Angles, locals pronounce Wilshire Blvd as w...In Los Angles, locals pronounce Wilshire Blvd as wil-SHIRE blvd. This truly drives me nuts, as it's a major road and you hear it mentioned often. As a Brit, i feel it could only be pronounced as WIL-sher blvd! Also French Fries in British is said with short emphasis on the syllables, but in American the syllables are dragged out, so you kind of get Freeench Friiiies. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-33080476483349882442011-11-25T11:21:30.595+00:002011-11-25T11:21:30.595+00:00A belated reply to the Anonymous who mentioned cla...A belated reply to the Anonymous who mentioned claret - Since I learned the old French song "Quand je bois du vin clairet", I've assumed that the English word must have been derived long ago from the French word "clairet"<br /><br />Kate (Derby, UK)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-89676651120462507992011-08-09T15:14:52.547+01:002011-08-09T15:14:52.547+01:00If there were ever any doubt about the U.S. pronun...If there were ever any doubt about the U.S. pronunciation of "filet," check out the spelling of the restaurant chain offering white-meat alternatives to burgers and tacos: Chick-Fil-A.<br /><br />They actually have a clever marketing campaign with lots of black and white cows painting signs (with crooked and backwards lettering) saying EAT MOR CHIKIN. http://www.chick-fil-a.com/Cows/Campaign-HistoryAlan Headbloomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11187957600735215343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-78444152765183742252011-08-09T15:13:00.542+01:002011-08-09T15:13:00.542+01:00If there were ever any doubt about the U.S. pronun...If there were ever any doubt about the U.S. pronunciation of "filet," check out the spelling of the restaurant chain offering white-meat alternatives to burgers and tacos: Chick-Fil-A.<br /><br />They actually have a clever marketing campaign with lots of black and white cows painting signs (with crooked and backwards lettering) saying EAT MOR CHIKIN. http://www.chick-fil-a.com/Cows/Campaign-HistoryAlan Headbloomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11187957600735215343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-8762396169301381312010-04-02T15:28:10.760+01:002010-04-02T15:28:10.760+01:00@Paul Danon:
Well, to say [ns] one has to do the ...@Paul Danon:<br /><br />Well, to say [ns] one has to do the following simultaneouly.<br /><br />1. close the soft palate<br />2. lower the tongue slightly<br />3. turn off voicing<br /><br />The fact that you can say [frɑnz] rather than [frɑndz] means that you are already doing 1. and 2. simultaneously. <br /><br />I think I may turn off voicing slightly prematurely, so that the latter part of the [n] is devoiced: [frɑnn̥s]. I would suggest starting from your [frɑnz] and devoicing the entire [nz], then trying to restore voicing to at least the first part of the [n]. Hope that helps.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-81164521898007447742010-04-02T10:57:32.732+01:002010-04-02T10:57:32.732+01:00Remarkable. I've tried to but I can't pron...Remarkable. I've tried to but I can't pronounce that. I can't help but say /frɑːnts/. You couldn't record it, could you?Paul Danonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04816761952837296368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-56035210582151482722010-04-02T01:07:05.961+01:002010-04-02T01:07:05.961+01:00@Paul Danon:
I say /frɑːns/@Paul Danon:<br /><br />I say /frɑːns/vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-37537358156501037362010-04-02T00:43:56.610+01:002010-04-02T00:43:56.610+01:00Sorry I'm late, but I'm interested in vp&#...Sorry I'm late, but I'm interested in vp's saying that he says <b>France</b> without a /t/. Does that mean that he finds himself voicing the final alveolar fricative? Sitting here alone with my wizened hand cupped to my cauliflower-ear, I find that, if I leave the /t/ out, I say /frɑnz/. Crazy or what?Paul Danonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04816761952837296368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-68052122191324214332010-01-20T01:37:37.010+00:002010-01-20T01:37:37.010+00:00@Harry Campbell:
My "idea" was is that ...@Harry Campbell:<br /><br />My "idea" was is that American /ɑ/ is closer to Italian /a/ than _American_ /æ/ is. As I said, there may also be some British (primarily RP-type) accents of which this could be true.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.com