tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post115999895776730379..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: Babel and Clerks (II)lynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-75818975770375754782016-04-11T15:35:14.576+01:002016-04-11T15:35:14.576+01:00David Crystal's new dictionary of Shakespeare&...David Crystal's new dictionary of Shakespeare's words as they would (by his calculation) be pronounced states that Shakespeare would have said <br /><br /><b>ˈfɪləm</b><br /><br />as the Irish do still.<br /><br />I thought this might be deduced from scansion but no, the evidence is even more convincing. An alternative First Folio spelling is <i>philome</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-75047029120556654052016-04-11T12:48:02.896+01:002016-04-11T12:48:02.896+01:00The observation of Irish people pronouncing "...The observation of Irish people pronouncing "Charles" as "Char-less" might be a result of the same principles as "fillum" (and the name Colm, pronounced like "column"), and/or it might be channelling the Irish equivalent of the name, <i>Shearlais</i> ("Shar-less"). Johnny Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02332149992788801634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-84708279727268600342014-04-01T07:03:16.439+01:002014-04-01T07:03:16.439+01:00Also, I have an Irish friend who pronounces Bible ...Also, I have an Irish friend who pronounces Bible 'Bibble'.<br />Which book of the Bibble is Babble in?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90613927791988404072014-04-01T06:51:38.225+01:002014-04-01T06:51:38.225+01:00Surely the Irish pronunciation is 'fillum'...Surely the Irish pronunciation is 'fillum', with a double L, not 'filum'? The latter spelling would be pronounced the same as 'phylum', would it not?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9095681767077349852012-11-23T07:12:28.296+00:002012-11-23T07:12:28.296+00:00I have an Irish friend called Pam. She likes to wa...I have an Irish friend called Pam. She likes to watch filums. Sometimes, when introducing herself to people she will point to the palm of her hand, to suggest that her name rhymes with 'palm'. I have seen this completely baffle BrE speakers, for whom Pam and palm are not homonyms.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-69243425171774769642008-05-07T16:45:00.000+01:002008-05-07T16:45:00.000+01:00The movie/film/cinema/etc thing is one of the many...The movie/film/cinema/etc thing is one of the many examples where Australian English is a bit of a compromise between British and American dialects. The most common terms here are "movie" and "cinema" (except in professional circles, where "film" is more preferred).<BR/><BR/>However, to me at least, a movie has to be fictional, so I would never describe "<EM>An Inconvenient Truth</EM>" (for example) as a movie. In that case, I would use the word "film" instead. I'd also use "film" for a feature that isn't long enough to count as a movie.<BR/><BR/>I have been told that the cinema complex within walking distance of where I live is the largest in the Southern Hemisphere. I don't know if that's true or not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-8348765008399030322007-07-19T07:01:00.000+01:002007-07-19T07:01:00.000+01:00That's because a lot of "stein" names (though not ...That's because a lot of "stein" names (though not Stein itself) arrived here via Russia, where they had become "stain". From "stain" to "steen" isn't much of a move.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-244159133307087932007-01-03T15:48:00.000+00:002007-01-03T15:48:00.000+00:00dearieme: "What about the common American pronunci...dearieme: "What about the common American pronunciation of the German names ending in "stein" as "steen"? Except for Eensteen, of course."<br /><br />-"Do you also say FROH-derick?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90470655834932602282007-01-02T22:46:00.000+00:002007-01-02T22:46:00.000+00:00In Irish itself, essentially all consonant cluster...In Irish itself, essentially all consonant clusters get an intrusive schwa, and this is characteristic of "deep' varieties of Hiberno-English as well.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1160846828554009112006-10-14T18:27:00.000+01:002006-10-14T18:27:00.000+01:00No - if I try saying Charles with an extra vowel b...No - if I try saying Charles with an extra vowel between the r and the l, I get something which sounds a bit Scottish, so I don't think it is done here. The Scotts do have good way of dealing with "r"s near "l"s. A Glasgow rendering of "squirrel" is quite wonderful!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1160383050159268822006-10-09T09:37:00.000+01:002006-10-09T09:37:00.000+01:00We have to make a distinction here between the two...We have to make a distinction here between the two /l/ sounds in English. The /l/ in <I>film</I> is a 'dark l', pronounced by raising the tongue at the back of the mouth. In some dialects of BrE, but certainly not all of them, the dark l is reali{s/z}ed as more w-like. <BR/><BR/>In Irish English <I>filum</I> as I perceive it, the l is a 'clear l', which is the type we have at the beginnings of syllables. That's pronounced (usually/by most people) with the tongue tip touching the gum ridge ('alveolar ridge') behind the front teeth. <BR/><BR/>So, standard BrE, AmE and IrE all have an l in <I>film</I>, but the two-syllable Irish pronunciation has a different l.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1160358738396153852006-10-09T02:52:00.000+01:002006-10-09T02:52:00.000+01:00You're right Lynne, it's an unfortunate term, but ...You're right Lynne, it's an unfortunate term, but perhaps more unfortuantely it's the one I use most. By 'vocalisation' I mean its becoming a vowel. <BR/>Google "l-vocalisation", you'll soon see what I mean.<BR/>What I mean is, the Irish have a tendency to say [film] rather than the fast-emerging [fium]. 'film' isn't the best example, so consider these: 'walk' is usually [wo:k] (or [wa:k] for AmE) and 'golf' is quickly becoming [gowf].Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1160345890909546592006-10-08T23:18:00.000+01:002006-10-08T23:18:00.000+01:00"a Scottish person" = a Scot."a Scottish person" = a Scot.deariemehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06654632450454559188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1160334549814578522006-10-08T20:09:00.000+01:002006-10-08T20:09:00.000+01:00I heard a Scottish person add a vowel between the ...I heard a Scottish person add a vowel between the /r/ and the /l/ of <I>world</I> the other day. Also done in Irish English, DM?lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1160331314143793852006-10-08T19:15:00.000+01:002006-10-08T19:15:00.000+01:00Remember that Wall Street boss Gutfreund who appar...Remember that Wall Street boss Gutfreund who apparently insisted that his staff pronounce his name "Good Friend". What about the common American pronunciation of the German names ending in "stein" as "steen"? Except for Eensteen, of course.deariemehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06654632450454559188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1160322218621135252006-10-08T16:43:00.000+01:002006-10-08T16:43:00.000+01:00Charles isn't a that commen here, but I have heard...Charles isn't a that commen here, but I have heard people say both "Char-els" and "Char-less". The latter I would regard as a bit of an affectation and might be saved for theatre lovies or for our former taoiseach (prime minister) Charles Haughey, who was a bit of a colourful character up to the day he died.<BR/><BR/>I'll keep an ear out for other words that have an "l" and have gained an extra sound.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1160160573846266212006-10-06T19:49:00.000+01:002006-10-06T19:49:00.000+01:00No, you have to listen to Paper Roses, which is th...No, you have to listen to Paper Roses, which is the song that most tortured BH in his English-upbringing.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1160132829689517232006-10-06T12:07:00.000+01:002006-10-06T12:07:00.000+01:00Could I not as least listen to the Bay City Roller...Could I not as least listen to the Bay City Rollers, who were the UK/poor man's answer to the Osmonds?!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1160118628132001462006-10-06T08:10:00.000+01:002006-10-06T08:10:00.000+01:00Aidhoss, when you say 'not vocalise the l', do you...Aidhoss, when you say 'not vocalise the l', do you mean not say it, or not voice it? Unvoiced liquids are pretty rare in English, so I'm assuming the former, which would mean that you're saying that the Irish say 'fim' instead of 'filum'? It's really clear when someone's saying 'filum', since it's a syllable longer. Really, people do say it! Lots of 'em!<BR/><BR/>E.g.<BR/>2004 San Francisco Irish Film Festival<BR/>Filum 04<BR/>San Francisco Irish Film Festival<BR/>March 10th and 11th 2004<BR/>Filum 04 (a play on the Irish for “film”) is a celebration of new Irish cinema that is achieving international acclaim with movies such as The Magdalene Sisters, Veronica Guerin and In America. <BR/>http://sfirishfilm.com/?page_id=42<BR/><BR/>Google 'film' and 'filum' together, and one gets lots of hits, from Ireland, Scotland and England.<BR/><BR/>And, no, Abel is pronounced 'able'. But why should we expect words/names to rhyme in English pronunciation? Just look at steak and teak, cough and rough, cow and mow.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1160098220102582882006-10-06T02:30:00.000+01:002006-10-06T02:30:00.000+01:00This IrE thing is getting to me. I don't perceive ...This IrE thing is getting to me. I don't perceive the Irish pronunciation of 'film' as 'filum', rather I take that as stereotype motivated by the IrE tendency not to vocalise the 'l'. <BR/>I think it's rather nice that IrE has resisted vocalisation of both liquids, 'l' and 'r', while other British dialects just diphthongise or lengthen the preceding vowel.<BR/>What happens when an 'l' or an 'r' occurs after a diphthong, I wonder?<BR/>I can't even think of an adequate example!<BR/>Back to biblical nonsense, if you say 'Babble', then is Cain's brother 'Abble'?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1160085910091262382006-10-05T23:05:00.000+01:002006-10-05T23:05:00.000+01:00You're not getting off the hook for being young th...You're not getting off the hook for being young that easily, Rebecca. As your penance, I think you should wear rainbow (BrE) braces/(AmE) suspenders and listen to the Osmonds, like I had to in the 70s.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1160081247804544422006-10-05T21:47:00.000+01:002006-10-05T21:47:00.000+01:00My husband's family are from the North East, but w...My husband's family are from the North East, but were Irish immigrants way back when, and they say 'fillum'.<BR/><BR/>Erm, I'll be one of those guilty of being ten years old when Clerks came out. I saw Chasing Amy at a sleepover aged 14, though. <BR/><BR/>In Asda - now owned by Walmart - shop assistants are called Checkout Operators. That's Newspeak for you, innit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1160074397014485982006-10-05T19:53:00.000+01:002006-10-05T19:53:00.000+01:00Great contribution, GY! Thanks!Great contribution, GY! Thanks!lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1160046902072346002006-10-05T12:15:00.000+01:002006-10-05T12:15:00.000+01:00DM may be able to confirm this, but I believe that...DM may be able to confirm this, but I believe that the extra vocalic syllable he mentions in 'filum' occurs commonly in IrE (hey, I've invented an abbreviation) when a letter L is followed by another consonant. For example, I've heard Irish friends pronounce the name Charles (not my name, btw) as Char-luz.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1160036463843294622006-10-05T09:21:00.000+01:002006-10-05T09:21:00.000+01:00Most AmE say Babel that way, EO'C. This wouldn't ...Most AmE say Babel that way, EO'C. This wouldn't be the first time that New England speech is a bit closer to UK--they had more recent UK and Irish immigration than most parts of the country.<BR/><BR/>Cannily, the <A HREF="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0449467/trailers" REL="nofollow">trailer</A> for the film doesn't include a pronunciation of the word--they tell the story of the tower (a bit--without mentioning the tower), then show the title. <BR/><BR/>DM, the 'filum' pronunciation is most typically Irish, but it's also heard a lot in South Africa and occasionally in AmE.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.com