tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post1442945128958508111..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: centenary and centenniallynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-47569601685152291352020-08-16T11:15:47.817+01:002020-08-16T11:15:47.817+01:00BrE (Scot, 60+). For me. Plenary, centenary and pe...BrE (Scot, 60+). For me. Plenary, centenary and penalty all have the same vowel as ten. But PEENalise and EEdipus. For some strange personal reason, EYEchylus, never having heard the name pronounced until recently. But without training, do people really HEAR a difference between things like PEENalise and PEEnalise?Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-24526581695788740382020-08-16T10:55:28.136+01:002020-08-16T10:55:28.136+01:00BrE, “Base it off” instead of “base it on”? Just c...BrE, “Base it off” instead of “base it on”? Just curious.Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-14119521888631553412010-01-07T11:32:56.951+00:002010-01-07T11:32:56.951+00:00"the curious case of their pronouncing classi..."the curious case of their pronouncing classical '_e' diphthongs (ae,oe) as 'ee.' Thus /eedipus/ rather than Oedipus, /eeschylus/ rather than Aeschylus et cetera. Am I wrong in this, or is it both a real phenomenon and connected to the topic in hand?"<br /><br />This is a real phenomenon. It faithfully preserves the traditional English pronunciation of Latin*. (This system was ousted from schools and universities about a hundred years ago in favour of a reformed scheme that reflects better the available evidence for the classical pronunciation of the language.)<br /><br />It's possible that this is relevant to the topic in hand. The derivation of <i>centenary</i> and <i>plenary</i> from <i>centenarius</i> and <i>plenus</i> is pretty transparent, and anyone taught Latin with the traditional system would have been accustomed to pronounce these words as "senteenarius" and "pleenus". Maybe this produced a bias among the educated (pre-1900) in favour of the -ee- pronunciation, and this was accepted into general usage.<br /><br /><br />* Yes, I know that Oedipus and Aeschylus are Greek, but as their spelling indicates (not Oidipous and Aiskhulos) the traditional convention in English was to use the Latin forms of Greek names and pronounce accordingly.Sir Watkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02000106556898498656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-58387602414633619002010-01-06T08:45:26.124+00:002010-01-06T08:45:26.124+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14376545097377854998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-34518363979836062312010-01-05T18:43:10.097+00:002010-01-05T18:43:10.097+00:00"I'm also puzzled as to the extent of Ame..."I'm also puzzled as to the extent of American shortening of that vowel. Is it just initial, or would any of you Yanks shorten the vowels in "amoeba", "paean", "caesura", "haematite", "leukaemia", and so on?"<br /><br />I'll volunteer my services as an American (Pennsylvanian). I don't have the IPA characters easily accessible, so I will "sound out" your words.<br />uh-mee-ba (spelled ameba OR amoeba)<br />pay-an (spelled the same)<br />seh-zoo/zur-rah (can't find in my very small dictionary, but I'd follow the rule from amo(e)ba)<br />hem-a-tite (we spell this "hematite")<br />loo-key-mee-a (spelled leukemia)<br /><br />So, I suppose that you can't entirely blame us for mispronouncing these words as for changing their spelling and pronouncing them as they look.<br />MelanieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-22213588750349438902010-01-05T14:57:29.693+00:002010-01-05T14:57:29.693+00:00Yes, definitely something that sounds like senty-n...Yes, definitely something that sounds like senty-nairian. I agree about oeconomic - but then, I am also old enough to want a short i in "Financial" (although a long one in "Finance") and a short e in "Research"Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-36963198809676981972010-01-05T14:02:29.412+00:002010-01-05T14:02:29.412+00:00It's /ˌsɛntəˈnɛəɹiən/. It differs from the Ame...It's /ˌsɛntəˈnɛəɹiən/. It differs from the American pronounciation in:<br />1) the "ten" syllable always having a schwa, rather than a syllabic "n";<br />2) the usual issue of the quality of the letter "r";<br />3) the other usual issue of the quality of the "t" being preserved even in casual speech; and:<br />4) that there is some substantial variation in the articulation of the [ɛə] diphthong -- there is some tendency toward monophthongization too -- but aside from that, this is one of those sounds where certain American film directors seem to have a desire to make all British people sound like 1950s newsreaders.<br /><br />As for the Oedipus issue, the most subtle one is the word "economic", which I would certainly pronounce as if it were still spelt "oeconomic" (perhaps this is a sad reflection on economists' appreciation of Greek). The American-influenced pronunciation of that one is real fingernails-on-blackboard stuff for me.<br /><br />I'm also puzzled as to the extent of American shortening of that vowel. Is it just initial, or would any of you Yanks shorten the vowels in "amoeba", "paean", "caesura", "haematite", "leukaemia", and so on?James Dowdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11058389162481491681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-85056783974703428992010-01-05T08:37:43.181+00:002010-01-05T08:37:43.181+00:00I'd pronounce centenarian with a short e, as f...I'd pronounce centenarian with a short e, as for centennial. (BrE speaker)David Younghttp://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/davidy/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-45957820817968469582010-01-05T05:26:37.613+00:002010-01-05T05:26:37.613+00:00How would a BrE speaker pronounce "centenaria...How would a BrE speaker pronounce "centenarian"? (Always assuming, of course, that the word is in use in BrE.)<br /><br />FWIW, for me (midwest/western AmE, mostly), penalty, plenary, centenary, and centenarian all have the same vowel.<br /><br />Oh, and "sesquicentennial" is pretty familiar. Smaller cities and towns look for any opportunity for a celebration, and centennials come along too seldom for convenience. Much of the US (especially the parts that I've spent the most time in) was first settled by English-speakers within the last 200 years. Combine those and you'll find quite a few sesquicentennial fairs and the like.<br /><br />An old joke seems apposite: The English need to remember that in the US, 100 years is a long time. And Americans need to remember that in England, 100 miles is a long distance.Doug Sundsethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848091504066560951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-35034033667238573922010-01-04T23:02:34.073+00:002010-01-04T23:02:34.073+00:00I learnt "sesquipedalian" recently and I...I learnt "sesquipedalian" recently and I've been looking for an opportunity to use it ever since. Sadly, I've just been beaten to it so I'll have to keep waiting.<br /><br />I'm completely with Mrs Redboots on pronunciation of plenary and centenary (I speak BrE) and I'd definitely always put a long e in penalise.David Younghttp://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/davidy/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-87352640748304564512010-01-04T20:55:45.050+00:002010-01-04T20:55:45.050+00:00As another BritE speaker, I'd normally say/exp...As another BritE speaker, I'd normally say/expect to hear [pli:nari] for "plenary" (very rough transcription there...). Actually, now I come to think about it, does anyone ever say [plaineri]? Or is that just interference for me from Lat. plenus? <br /><br />On a related note, Brian Moore, who commentates on rugby for the BBC always surprises me by saying "penalise" with an [ɛ], where I would have [i:]. OED suggests that this is an American pronunciation; Brian comes from Birmingham via Yorkshire, so I've no idea if this is also a possible Midlands/Yorkshire pronunciation, or just an idiosyncracy (analogy with "penalty"?).<br /><br />In general, sesquicentenary strikes me as rather sesquipedalian!superdinosaurboynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-17362277533215851852010-01-04T18:18:30.323+00:002010-01-04T18:18:30.323+00:00Thank you so much, Lynn, for addressing my query a...Thank you so much, Lynn, for addressing my query about centenary and centennial. I still have my celebratory (another word pronounced rather differently on each side of the pond) hat from the Guide Centenary, and here in California I still see quite a few sesquicentennial license plates on cars. <br /><br />I would normally pronounce <i>plenary</i> with a short 'e' also, but seldom have occasion to do so. <br /><br />I have recommended your blog to numerous friends who also have an interest in language differences between British and American English. Thanks again.AuntieAnnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09745438891737314047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-56014454945746461582010-01-04T17:28:14.894+00:002010-01-04T17:28:14.894+00:00A block of the core of Harvard College--the area t...A block of the core of Harvard College--the area that's separated from the better known Yard by a row of buildings--was named Tercentenary Theater during the 1936 300-year celebrations.<br /><br />I'd always heard it pronounced Ter cen TEN nary, but a few years ago I heard a radio announcer during Commencement pronounce it Ter CENT en ary. Nary an ee in the house.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-50913117390730724172010-01-03T20:42:26.166+00:002010-01-03T20:42:26.166+00:00I'm British, and I've never heard it prono...I'm British, and I've never heard it pronounced any other way than PLEEnary! And always a long stressed e in Centenary, too.Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-57195352256959952312010-01-03T20:04:43.232+00:002010-01-03T20:04:43.232+00:00@Lowell
I'm from Montana, but my parents move...@Lowell<br /><br />I'm from Montana, but my parents moved there from New York and Pennsylvania.<br /><br />It may be relevant that I've only ever heard the word in the phrase "plenary indulgence".cheyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18128271313457735717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-63281745713557539262010-01-03T17:19:30.157+00:002010-01-03T17:19:30.157+00:00@Cheyan
Where in the US are you from? I'm mor...@Cheyan<br /><br />Where in the US are you from? I'm more and more inclined to think this is a regional difference.Lowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704903596997447763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-38434828382028062242010-01-03T17:03:52.513+00:002010-01-03T17:03:52.513+00:00Hmm. AmE speaker here, and I'd say plenary as ...Hmm. AmE speaker here, and I'd say plenary as "pleenary" because when I learned the word that's how I learned it, not because I'm following a rule about long or short e. In fact, when I was reading the post, I encountered the pronunciation "plenn-ary" and assumed it was another word, like centenary, that I'd never encountered before, right up until the end when you gave the pronunciation as pleenary and I realized it was a word I knew!cheyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18128271313457735717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90194210662044151892010-01-03T16:56:13.956+00:002010-01-03T16:56:13.956+00:00The Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary is...The Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary is the best one I've found on the web for noting AmE-BrE differences. It gives only the /i/ pronunciation for <a href="http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=60769&dict=CALD&topic=official-meetings" rel="nofollow">plenary</a> for both. For <a href="http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=12176&dict=CALD&topic=birthdays-and-anniversaries" rel="nofollow">centenary</a> it gives /i/ first, then /ɛ/, for both; it notes "US usually<br />centennial" but doesn't pronounce it.<br /><br />Relatedly, I postulate that the variant "<b>tri</b>centen[ary|nial]" (of the more common "<b>ter</b>centen[ary|nial]") is relatively more common in AmE than BrE.mollymoolynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-78268769820257112272010-01-03T12:08:13.140+00:002010-01-03T12:08:13.140+00:00Oxford has a North American dictionary branch, so ...Oxford has a North American dictionary branch, so I assume that the Oxford American is thoroughly checked by Americans. But every dictionary, even the OED, has its blindspots.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-5210972185114238982010-01-03T12:05:40.763+00:002010-01-03T12:05:40.763+00:00I do miss having the OED around to check pronuncia...I do miss having the OED around to check pronunciations - almost enough to make me want to go back to Uni just for access! If only because it actually uses IPA so I don't have to decode a different 'laymans' pronunciation system for each dictionary I look at.<br /><br />It's interesting that the actually American AmE dictionaries list /i/ first (at least, I think that's what you mean by pli-?) while the Oxford American lists /ɛ/ only. Do you know if the Oxford American is actually written or checked by Americans or do they just base it off the OED?<br /><br />Maybe /i/ is a west coast thing. They're weird. Hollywood has taken away our dictionaries! Or something.Lowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704903596997447763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-5999486705781275112010-01-03T12:04:43.875+00:002010-01-03T12:04:43.875+00:00See updates in the post now. I've put new mate...See updates in the post now. I've put new material in green.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-5183847731049992402010-01-03T12:00:51.205+00:002010-01-03T12:00:51.205+00:00Well, first I asked Better Half, and he said "...Well, first I asked Better Half, and he said "plenn". Then there was the thingie that I linked to that had the AmE speaker doing "pli". Merriam-Webster and Random House(AmE) have pli- first.<br /><br />Macmillan, which offers both a BrE and AmE version has pli- for both, with no 'plenn' version. <br /><br />But the OED does have pli- as BrE then plenn- as AmE--so, obviously, I must've skipped that step. Will issue a correction!lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-44097036731060437122010-01-03T11:53:18.129+00:002010-01-03T11:53:18.129+00:00@lynneguist
I (AmE, Mid-Atlantic/NE) would prono...@lynneguist <br /><br />I (AmE, Mid-Atlantic/NE) would pronounce <i>plenary</i> with an /ɛ/ and not an /i/ and the New Oxford American agrees with me. It doesn't even list an /i/ pronunciation for AmE.<br /><br />The Compact Oxford (BrE), conversely, lists /i/ but not /ɛ/. My BrE partner pronounces it /ɛ/, though, but as a very early reader he has a long history of pronouncing words as he read them and not as they would generally be pronounced.<br /><br />Ever accurate and distinguished Wikitionary agrees with /i/ for BrE and /ɛ/ for AmE. <br /><br />Were you seeing it otherwise in official sources like dictionaries? I'm inclined to think that the online pronunciation you linked to is either an aberration or a regional difference.Lowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704903596997447763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-43187723106122449262010-01-03T11:39:38.399+00:002010-01-03T11:39:38.399+00:00I'm glad to see BrE speakers saying 'pleen...I'm glad to see BrE speakers saying 'pleenary', because that's what I thought you said, before I looked it up in dictionaries and believed them.<br /><br />For the oe/ae issue, please discuss <a href="http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2007/09/ae-oe-and-e.html" rel="nofollow">back at the appropriate post</a>, so that your comments are there for people who might need them!lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-38055472430133206812010-01-03T11:23:32.652+00:002010-01-03T11:23:32.652+00:00@Graham - The Linnean society, being taxonomists, ...@Graham - The Linnean society, being taxonomists, are probably more comfortable with latin than most, which may explain why they opted for sesquicentenary. I expect those wanting to celebrate Big Ben or the V&A opted for a word that doesn't (to the wholly ineducated ear, i.e. mine) immediately suggest something closer to 600 years...<br /><br />I too (British) would opt for PlEEnary, but I would have heard the word first at international conferences so who knows where the pronounciation came fromtownmousehttp://cityexile.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com