tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post1621188148883530875..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: untangle and disentanglelynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-20545870272326849132016-05-13T19:27:37.704+01:002016-05-13T19:27:37.704+01:00Thanks, this post is very useful. But, come to thi...Thanks, this post is very useful. But, come to think about it, the difference is obvious:<br />- you untangle something which is tangled (i.e., intertwined into itself)<br />- you disentangle something which is entangled (i.e., intertwined into something other than itself)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-26368081335662687492013-04-15T18:58:21.208+01:002013-04-15T18:58:21.208+01:00@David ... It could be. It could also be that folk...@David ... It could be. It could also be that folks who write more formally write 'disentangle' ... thinking that it is more formal.AnWulfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14561827352709157334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-49149549205234067332013-04-15T15:09:58.436+01:002013-04-15T15:09:58.436+01:00AnWulf
In fiction, we see that untangle is noted ...AnWulf<br /><br /><i>In fiction, we see that untangle is noted more often</i><br /><br />Isn't this simply a matter of more American fiction being published than British?David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-12605868751586803492013-02-01T14:51:42.112+00:002013-02-01T14:51:42.112+00:00Kevin
In the UK many public libraries allow subsc...Kevin<br /><br />In the UK many public libraries allow subscribers to access the OED online. You just enter your local library subscription number. I don't know which libraries outside the UK allow this, if any. What you get is the latest revision for each entry — some updated since the last paper revision in 1989, others not.<br /><br />The entry for <i>embowel</i> (not updated) gives an etymology with an alternation in Old French between <i>em-</i> and earlier <i>es-</i> which is, as you suggest, ultimately from Latin <i>ex-</i>.<br /><br />In sixteenth century English, <i>embowel</i> meant either to eviscerate or to force something into the bowels.<br /><br />The entry (also not updated) for derived, somewhat later, <i>disembowel</i> gives two different meanings: <br /><br />• As we might expect, a parallel to <i>disentangle</i> — i.e. 'remove from the bowels'<br /><br />• The sense we still use — the 'eviscerate' sense of <i>embowel</i> with extra emphasis.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-74387303839103887922013-02-01T04:46:04.782+00:002013-02-01T04:46:04.782+00:00It now strikes me as odd that shins can get barked...It now strikes me as odd that shins can get barked, and occasionally knuckles but I have never heard it said of forearms even though they can sustain a very similar injury. <br /><br />On googling I found this thread from the Straight Dope message Board http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=278958 in which people mention barking elbows, and knees as well. The common factor is that the bone is close to the skin, which brings me back to the forearm and how come we don't bark the skin over the ulna.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09804415680695738618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-19803231114710243082013-01-31T23:03:27.651+00:002013-01-31T23:03:27.651+00:00I think you're right, Monique: even many centu...I think you're right, Monique: even many centuries after French ceased to be the first language of any class of the people of England, the feeling that <b>en-</b>/<b>em-</b> conveys "into-ness" remains powerfully present in English too. And what one has once got into, one may also need to get out of (using "disen-"). Thus: disengage, disentangle, disentwine, and the rest.<br /><br />There is, however, at least one case where it was <b>ex-</b> + noun beginning in b- that evolved into "emb-". I'm thinking of the word "disembowel". Doubtless it was for the very reason that it SOUNDED as if the old word "embowel" (= eviscerate) involved inward, rather than outward, movement that the prefix "dis-" was added later.<br /><br />Is anyone with access to the "big" Oxford dictionary (with dates) able to confirm the chronology?<br />Kevinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-14414990385655650572013-01-31T23:01:54.333+00:002013-01-31T23:01:54.333+00:00I think you're right, Monique: even many centu...I think you're right, Monique: even many centuries after French ceased to be the first language of any class of the people of England, the feeling that <b>en-</b>/<b>em-</b> conveys "into-ness" remains powerfully present in English too. And what one has once got into, one may also need to get out of (using "disen-"). Thus: disengage, disentangle, disentwine, and the rest.<br /><br />There is, however, at least one case where it was <b>ex-</b> + noun beginning in b- that evolved into "emb-". I'm thinking of the word "disembowel". Doubtless it was for the very reason that it SOUNDED as if the old word "embowel" (= eviscerate) involved inward, rather than outward, movement that the prefix "dis-" was added later.<br /><br />Is anyone with access to the "big" Oxford dictionary (with dates) able to confirm the chronology?Kevinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-53854814355364516082013-01-20T20:11:33.280+00:002013-01-20T20:11:33.280+00:00(A Frenchie) Yes, all these 'en' sound fam...(A Frenchie) Yes, all these 'en' sound familiar to me - meaning to embark on some activity, get involved in sth, enclosed in sth (entonner, ennamourer, entraîner, encarapaçonner, endetter - for starting on a 'tune', starting on a love relationship, drawing sn along a suite, a sequence, closing up in a shell, encrusted! , bringing sn into debt). <br />Now I'll leave it to you, proper native English speakers, to disentangle the threads of these posts (to untangle the thread of this post?)^^Monique Picardhttp://poesie-a-tempo.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-43338395050607154562013-01-11T13:00:56.451+00:002013-01-11T13:00:56.451+00:00After checking enbus in the online OED, I thought ...After checking <i>enbus</i> in the online OED, I thought I'd see if they had <i>encoach</i>. Surprisingly, they do — but not for the sort of coach the Army now uses.<br /><br />Helpfully, they list together all the obscure and nonce-word <i>en-</i>items which otherwise might not merit an entry. My favourites are <i>encraal</i> 'to lodge in a kraaal' and <i>engammon</i> 'to get into the haunch (of a pig)'.<br /><br />The two uses with means of transport are in these seventeenth century quotes:<br /><br /><i> ..................................Speculations high, <br />Enchariot Thee, Elijah-like, to th' Skie!<br /><br />Elijah-like..To be encharioted in Fire.<br /><br />Tamburaline..encoacht in burnisht Gold.<br /></i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-28081014701946932812013-01-11T11:55:30.233+00:002013-01-11T11:55:30.233+00:00Dru
If 'entrain', 'embus' or '...Dru<br /><br /><i>If 'entrain', 'embus' or 'enplane' exist at all</i><br /><br />They are all listed in the OED. Well, there isn't an entry for <i>enbus</i>, but it is there — as an alternative form of <i>embus</i>. <br /><br />For some people, it seems, <i>en-</i> has become a distinct prefix exclusively for 'into transport' verbs — unlike the standard multi-purpose <i>en-</i> which becomes <i>em-</i> before <b>p, b, m</b>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-8722355331181097202013-01-11T01:16:36.465+00:002013-01-11T01:16:36.465+00:00I think I might have heard "deplane" onc...I think I might have heard "deplane" once or twice from the crew of a commercial aircraft. <br /><br />I'm thinking of calling it "embootation" when I put my boots on.emptyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04513102801380602436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-41184150913595493852013-01-10T23:14:48.414+00:002013-01-10T23:14:48.414+00:00Does any ordinary person use 'entrain' or ...Does any ordinary person use 'entrain' or 'de-train'? If 'de-train' exists, I would speculate that its use is solely military. If 'entrain', 'embus' or 'enplane' exist at all, I'm fairly sure I haven't met them, and would prefer not to.Drunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-23460631993977578242013-01-08T00:09:09.128+00:002013-01-08T00:09:09.128+00:00empty
Yes bark your shin is used in British Engli...empty<br /><br />Yes <i>bark your shin</i> is used in British English occasionally. I believe most of us are familiar with the phrasing, though I for one don't use it.<br /><br />And though I've long been familiar with this <i>bark</i>, I didn't realise that it's a figurative use of 'strip the bark off'. This makes it parallel to other verbs of removing the outer covering such as <i>skin, peel, scalp</i> etc.<br /><br />Personally, I'd say <i>graze your shin</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-74980612720589630362013-01-07T23:30:52.389+00:002013-01-07T23:30:52.389+00:00biochemist
There was a verb bark, now obsolete, f...biochemist<br /><br />There was a verb <i>bark</i>, now obsolete, from French <i>barquer</i>.<br /><br />My guess is that <i>embark</i> was only <b>later</b> analysed as <i>en-</i> + NOUN mode of transport. So — in the Army, at least — the verbs <i>embus, entrain, emplane</i> were formed on the same pattern. There's no feeling that they are <i>en-</i> + VERB <i>bus/train/plane</i>, which is presumably why we don't have <i>disembus, disentrain, disemplane</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-3003828045221817712013-01-07T23:01:24.711+00:002013-01-07T23:01:24.711+00:00To embark is to board a boat or bark/barque, same ...To embark is to board a boat or bark/barque, same as the sense used at the Embarcadero (harbour) in San Diego and presumably in other Hispanic ports. But it is interesting that we disembark (and disentangle) rather than de-barquing or de-tangling.<br /><br />Have we been here before with the modern words entrain and de-train??biochemistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-87086183785487910202013-01-07T22:44:57.800+00:002013-01-07T22:44:57.800+00:00In the US you can bark your shin against something...In the US you can bark your shin against something. Can you do that in the UK?emptyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04513102801380602436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-81366257016278798882013-01-07T13:45:25.847+00:002013-01-07T13:45:25.847+00:00I forgot about:
embarked~disembarked vs barked [e...I forgot about: <br /><i>embarked~disembarked</i> vs <i>barked</i> [either what dogs do i.e a different verb, or else a verb which hasn't been used for centuries]David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-10453228041882343612013-01-07T12:40:59.045+00:002013-01-07T12:40:59.045+00:00The reason, I think, that there's something sp...The reason, I think, that there's something special about <i>disentangle</i> is that there's something special about the word it opposes: <i>entangle</i>.<br /><br />The other <i>disem-/disen-</i> words tend to be straightforward. The pairs have meanings significantly different from the core verb. I'll list some common pairs as Past Participles, since some at least are more natural in that form.<br /><br /><i>embodied~diembodied</i> vs <i>bodied</i> [rare]<br /><i>empowered~disempowered</i> vs <i>powered</i> [different meaning]<br /><i>engaged~disengaged</i> vs <i>gaged</i> [rare]<br /><i>enfranchised~disenfranchised</i> vs <i>franchised</i> [different meaning]<br /><i>enchanted~disenchanted</i> vs <i>chanted</i> [different meaning|<br /><br />But the meanings of <i>entangled</i> and <i>tangled</i> have drifted together. For me, and I suspect most other speakers, they have become practically synonymous.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-13565013139259876782013-01-07T01:26:02.574+00:002013-01-07T01:26:02.574+00:00By the way, there are hair care products called de...By the way, there are hair care products called detanglers. Not disentanglers, not untanglers. Who can say why?emptyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04513102801380602436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-43968397298352078782013-01-06T14:32:12.755+00:002013-01-06T14:32:12.755+00:00I do not think I have ever used the word disentang...I do not think I have ever used the word disentangle myself, but I read it a lot. (US,Midwest, St. Louis area)Mindynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-48946026508494293422013-01-06T14:17:45.372+00:002013-01-06T14:17:45.372+00:00Lynne:
"What tangled webs we weave" is a...Lynne:<br />"What tangled webs we weave" is a quote I finally disentangled from Shakespearian attribution. Before that it was all tangled up - at least in my mind.Marc Leavitthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12400805396776788101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-7710709640566378392013-01-05T20:08:31.468+00:002013-01-05T20:08:31.468+00:00I have been following your blog for a year or so, ...I have been following your blog for a year or so, with great interest. (I have dual British Canadian citizenship.) <br /><br />Do you know this verse, set to music by Thomas Ford in the early 17th century?<br /><br />"Since first I saw your face I resolved to honour and renown ye; <br />If now I be disdainèd I wish my heart had never known ye. <br />What? I that loved and you that liked, shall we begin to wrangle? <br />No, no, no, my heart is fast, and cannot disentangle."Alison Hobbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12678010452784368792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-6356516329210275982013-01-05T18:44:52.570+00:002013-01-05T18:44:52.570+00:00I always though disentangled was more likely to be...I always though disentangled was more likely to be reflexive, while untangle was not.Linda McPheehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16722602165686303141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-8684940226227394032013-01-04T14:42:25.221+00:002013-01-04T14:42:25.221+00:00As an elderly BrE speaker, my general preferences ...As an elderly BrE speaker, my general preferences are as Lynne describes, with <i>disentangle</i> for separation and <i>untangle</i> repairing a mess. I'm more prejudiced than many against <i>untangle</i>, though I can use it. <br /><br />I'm not sure about adjectival <i>untangled</i>, though. I think I'd prefer to avoid <i>Her messy hair of the previous day was now untangled</i>, instead saying <i>Her messy hair of the previous day had become untangled</i> — or, possibly, <i>had become disentangled</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-81651373223466135802013-01-04T10:53:36.246+00:002013-01-04T10:53:36.246+00:00I definitely have the disentangle from preference....I definitely have the disentangle <i>from</i> preference. My hunch is that despite being generally a BrE speaker, I also strongly prefer untangle for things like knots or headphone cords, but I don't think it's a hard and fast rule for me.Ginger Yellowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06103410278129312943noreply@blogger.com