tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post1729932636039905037..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: more on vowelslynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-13309228976466960892017-10-17T16:52:28.237+01:002017-10-17T16:52:28.237+01:00Scotland is different. Scottish accents have a vow...Scotland is different. Scottish accents have a vowel inventory unlike the rest of English. The only accents to share it are in neighbouring North Northumberland and the 'colonial outpost' as it were of Ulster.<br /><br />In the vast generality of English accents, there is a distinction between the vowel in words like TRAP and the vowel in the small group of word like PALM. For the much larger group of words like BATH there is a split between regional accents — and in some cases within a particular accent.<br /><br />Outside England, accents each assign one vowel value or another to subsets of BATH words with no consideration of what is <i>'posher'</i> and what isn't.<br /> <br />In England, there's a general difference between Northern speakers who pronounce BATH words with a TRAP vowel and Southern speakers who pronounce it with a PALM vowel. But an additional social factor compels some Northern speakers to see the BATH pronunciation as more prestigious, and modify their accent accordingly. To the speakers around them, this may be perceived as pretentious or posh.<br /><br />I, for example grew up in Nottingham (East Midlands of England). Children around me pronounced BATH words with a TRAP vowel. But I was in a middle-class family. My father had gone to a boarding school and my mother had paid for elocution lessons to lose her Swansea (South Wales) accent. Money well spent — she held down well-paid work despite having no qualifications in a time of high unemployment. So I pronounce <i>aunt</i> and <i>ant</i> with completely distinct vowels.<br /><br />The American complication is that something happened to the TRAP vowel in accents of New England, spreading to places like Detroit and Chicago. Before certain consonant sounds — including <b>n</b> — and after certain consonant sounds, the vowel may be longer and closer to the DRESS vowel. Or it may not — it differs from accent to accent.<br /><br />The difference in the pronunciation by one speaker between, say, the vowel of <i>tan</i> and the vowel of <i>tang</i> is more obvious to ears outside North America — hence your description of it as <i>'exaggerated'</i>.<br /><br />The choice of inserted <b>r</b> in <i>The tuba is yellow</i> is not a matter of accent. Some speakers — myself included — always include a so-called <b>intrusive R</b>. Some never use the pronunciation. Many, I believe, pronounce the <b>r</b> without realising it. In casual speech, that is. In careful speech they use what they consider the more 'correct' pronunciation — the one that corresponds to the spelling. One choice or the other may be observed no matter what the accent. It's more controversial in the prestige RP accent because many RP speakers consider it an <i>'educated'</i> accent.<br /><br />My accent is RP (more or less), so I make no distinction between <i>aunt</i> and <i>aren't</i>.<br /><br />There are powerful arguments for considering <b>Scots</b> a different language, but the prevailing tongue in Scotland is <b>English with a Sottish accent</b>. Yes, there are differences from other Englishes, but they relatively few and relatively superficial.<br /><br />David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9767967863462734002017-10-15T20:43:15.750+01:002017-10-15T20:43:15.750+01:00This debate (ant vs aunt) always seems funny to me...This debate (ant vs aunt) always seems funny to me - as a Scot, these sounds are the same. There might be a miniscule difference in length, but it's a matter of cadence. I would never consider them different vowel sounds. <br /><br />Some English accents (the posher ones) do have an audible distinction, but it's nowhere near as exaggerated as in American English - if you do push it that much, as you point out, it sounds like a dropped 'r' ('parsta').<br /><br />As someone who grew up listening to English accents, I can hear the dropped R very clearly. Otherwise I would struggle to understand! To my ear, however, the dropped R is completely absent at the end of a word - "tuba" = "tuber", they're distinguished by context. This does vary with accent, mind you - in Scouse, for instance, there's an audible difference ("tubah" Vs "tubeh").<br /><br />Not all English accents re-insert the dropped R when following with a vowel. Some just insert a short glottal stop ("the tuba. is yellow")<br /><br />Sounds often fail to map between different UK dialects. Many dialects have their own unique sounds (for example, the Scots short and long "u") which have no equivalent in others. "English" is not really one language - it's a family of languages, mish mashed from all sorts of roots, and irregular in all sorts of fascinating ways.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-44084488338050471672015-08-12T21:44:40.247+01:002015-08-12T21:44:40.247+01:00The "a" in "latte" is almost i...The "a" in "latte" is almost identical to the northern English long "a", as in "far" (although not remotely like American or Southern English pronunciations of a long "a"), as is the "a" in "-are" endings etc. The "a" in "pasta" is the same as the northern short "a", as in "bat" (and in "bath" too, up here). My Italian teacher said the latter spot-on. They talk broad in Europe.April23rdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-74939719773553750212008-02-25T03:10:00.000+00:002008-02-25T03:10:00.000+00:00"Latte" has always annoyed me... I can say it (I t..."Latte" has always annoyed me... I can say it (I think accurately) in an Italian accent, but that would sound pretty pretentious in Caffe Nero. The /a/ sounds to my (BrE) ear like a cross between the "trap" vowel and a short version of the "bath" one - perhaps "lartay" is slightly closer than "lattay". Maybe I should just order tea.Johnny Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02332149992788801634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-75746541651817867222007-11-25T09:22:00.000+00:002007-11-25T09:22:00.000+00:00Both my AmE wife and I (BrE) get a soft vibration...Both my AmE wife and I (BrE) get a soft vibration using the close the nose test :P<BR/><BR/>However that vibration comes with the consonant after the vowel. It happens wit farm, fern. fiend - but not with feet.<BR/><BR/>Neither of us could feel any nasal differences against the vowel in any of the words. <BR/><BR/>So as research - that tells you little more than the test isn't universal, which I suspect you knew.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90304113631442328862007-11-17T21:56:00.000+00:002007-11-17T21:56:00.000+00:00BH is in America and I'm home alone, so someone el...BH is in America and I'm home alone, so someone else is going to have to do the test...lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-24939893421665299572007-11-17T21:20:00.000+00:002007-11-17T21:20:00.000+00:00Lynne,I am not a phonetician either, but you can d...Lynne,<BR/><BR/>I am not a phonetician either, but you can do a simple test.<BR/><BR/>Close off your nose with your thumb and index finger. <BR/><BR/>Say feet. No pressure in the nose.<BR/><BR/>Say fiend. Notice the pressure in the nose when articulating the vowel.<BR/><BR/>Now, test your pronunciation of farm or fern. I don't get any pressure when articulating the vowel.<BR/><BR/>If the Better Half has an r-less dialect, ask him if he has pressure when articulating the vowel in farm or fern or relevant words.Bob Yateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15316829283811073591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-4046841394266969522007-11-17T10:53:00.000+00:002007-11-17T10:53:00.000+00:00Good point, Bob. But as I've said before, I'm no ...Good point, Bob. But as I've said before, I'm no phonetician! Someone else will have to investigate that...lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-30254696891359627312007-11-17T01:51:00.000+00:002007-11-17T01:51:00.000+00:00Lynne,Wouldn't one of the ways to figure out if th...Lynne,<BR/><BR/>Wouldn't one of the ways to figure out if there is a "perceived" post-vocalic r is to determine whether the vowel in words like firm or fern or form are nasalized? <BR/><BR/>I know in my Upper Midwest American they aren't because the "r" blocks nasalization. <BR/><BR/>Do those accents that drop the post-vocalic "r" nasalize the vowel? Of course, this could be accounted for by a rule-ordering.Bob Yateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15316829283811073591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-50773257724541109052007-11-14T21:37:00.000+00:002007-11-14T21:37:00.000+00:00An update on the Italian situation. I had lunch w...An update on the Italian situation. I had lunch with my Italian colleague today and asked her the <I>pasta</I> question again (the first time I'd asked her by e-mail). After asking me to pronounce the AmE and BrE versions again (to the extent of my ability to pronounce the BrE version like a native) and she said "I can't hear much difference between them!"<BR/><BR/>To me, there was a big difference. But if you come from a language that doesn't have an /a/-/ae/ distinction, they probably all flow together...lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-72215574052898436212007-11-14T08:29:00.000+00:002007-11-14T08:29:00.000+00:00I'm a native speaker of BE but also speak fluent I...I'm a native speaker of BE but also speak fluent Italian and to me the vowel in the AE pronunciation is much too long, the vowel in the BE is a bit too short. I have always thought the BE was closer to the Italian but I must defer to your Italian colleague if she has experience of both.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-17474911840568060072007-11-13T23:33:00.000+00:002007-11-13T23:33:00.000+00:00Mollymooly--good point. I've asked our Italian co...Mollymooly--good point. I've asked our Italian colleague, who has lived in both the US and the UK. She said the American pronunciation is 'definitely' closer to the Italian for her.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-8721037657085525122007-11-13T21:23:00.000+00:002007-11-13T21:23:00.000+00:00khakhi/car key - no difference in the 'ah'. focus ...khakhi/car key - no difference in the 'ah'. focus on the 'i/ee' khakI and car kEY. In the latter, the 'ee' is more stretched.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-48285411233742478202007-11-13T19:56:00.000+00:002007-11-13T19:56:00.000+00:00Maybe you should ask your Italian colleague which ...Maybe you should ask your Italian colleague which English pronunciation he thinks sounds closer.<BR/><BR/>There may also be differences between North/South Italy and Iberian/American Spanish accents, which could influence which English vowel is closest to the Romance vowel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-24985076868338682332007-11-13T10:20:00.000+00:002007-11-13T10:20:00.000+00:00I take your point, Max, that none of these vowels ...I take your point, Max, that none of these vowels exactly matches the Italian, but when our Italian colleague says <I>pasta</I> and <I>latte</I> it still sounds more like the American version to me than the British version does!<BR/><BR/>But I'm not a phonetician...lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-70146878773921064762007-11-13T09:52:00.000+00:002007-11-13T09:52:00.000+00:00I don't think lynneguist is right to say that the ...I don't think lynneguist is right to say that the Italian /a/ in <I>pasta</I> corresponds to BrE PALM vowel (= father) rather than BrE TRAP vowel (= bat). BrE (including RP) TRAP vowel is no longer the [ae] vowel of the textbooks, or the [ae] vowel of AmE, but is very like Cardinal vowel [a], which is also the kind of short, low, not very front vowel found in Italian <I>pasta</I>, and in Spanish, French, Greek and many other languages --it's a very common vowel type. And the PALM vowel in BrE is long, while the vowel in Italian <I>pasta</I> is short. So the TRAP vowel is a pretty good match for 'international' /a/. For Americans, however, the TRAP vowel is too front and too raised (and in some of its contexts, too long) to be a good match for the vowel of It. <I>pasta</I>, whereas the unrounded low back POT vowel makes a better match.<BR/><BR/><BR/>BrE non-rhotic speakers are inclined to say that the PALM vowel 'has an R in it' because the name of the letter R is exactly the PALM vowel.Max Wheelerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08488671125464364189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-52977783899977725272007-11-12T14:50:00.000+00:002007-11-12T14:50:00.000+00:00As an aside regarding vowels. My girlfriend (rais...As an aside regarding vowels. My girlfriend (raised all over the US) will always try to correct my pronuncuation of the letter A, but only in certain instances.<BR/>For example, when I say the name Aaron, it does not get confused with the name Erin, as the A has a much rounder sound to it. The same thing happens when saying the name Carrie as opposed to Carey (as in Mariah or Drew.)<BR/>So to her, Aaron and Erin sound identical, as do Carrie and Carey.<BR/>I keep saying it is a regional thing, becasue my family speaks the same way that I do...<BR/>She just thinks we are wierd...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-18967959039308697552007-11-12T14:48:00.000+00:002007-11-12T14:48:00.000+00:00Anon, the 'ah'-before-/s/ rule is undoubtedly more...Anon, the 'ah'-before-/s/ rule is undoubtedly more subtle than I've painted it as here (otherwise people wouldn't be saying <I>paesta</I> instead of <I>pahsta</I>!) Names, like NASA, are in particular resistant to rules that affect other parts of language.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-48832808694146093092007-11-12T13:26:00.000+00:002007-11-12T13:26:00.000+00:00The number of puns based on -er/final a (not think...<I>The number of puns based on -er/final a (not thinking of one right now!) hints that at the ends of words the sounds are perceived as being fairly similar.</I><BR/><BR/>One of my favo(u)rites is the Led Zeppelin song "D'yer Mak'er". For many years I cluelessly pronounced it (and interpreted it) as something more like "do your maker", with no idea that it made reference to the old joke:<BR/><BR/>A: My wife went to the West Indies.<BR/>B: Jamaica?<BR/>A: No, it was her idea.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90196511819000929852007-11-12T05:36:00.000+00:002007-11-12T05:36:00.000+00:00Here in Southeastern Mass., you will usually here ...Here in Southeastern Mass., you will usually here the r-reversals (i.e, dropping word- and syllable-final r's that most Americans pronounce, and adding an r sound to the end of words with final short 'a'), but the Anglicized pronounciation of the sound most Americans normally sound as 'ae'=bat, well, that is fading here, increasingly restricted to locations along the coast up to Maine, and to people who are older. I am not sure why that is, but tv must have a great deal to do with it. As for those 1930s American movies and newsreels, it is true that the prestige stage dialect used by American actors then was far closer to RP English than anything any American actors or news readers use today, but that was, IIRC, more or less because it was an artificialized Anglo-American stage dialect designed to be some sort of via media between the two national norms in the first place, and Americans would probably never go for that today anyhow (can one imagine Rambo speaking with such a dialect?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-69356150866339118302007-11-12T02:22:00.000+00:002007-11-12T02:22:00.000+00:00As a Washington-State-raised now-Californian who's...As a Washington-State-raised now-Californian who's spent much time in South Asia where RP is the prestige pronunication: <BR/><BR/>* RP versions of "khaki" and "car key" sound different in my head. (But then I speak Spanish and can hear the length difference between two successive /a/s in "va a ver" ["is going to see"] and three successive /a/s in "va a haber" ["is going to be"].)<BR/><BR/>* I grew up pronouncing "tot" and "taught" the same and I suspect I still do. But I can hear the distinction in an East Coast (or UK) accent and can reproduce it if I try. Especially if I imagine an overdone New Jersey accent.<BR/><BR/>* <I>The number of puns based on -er/final a</I>: There's a children's program in the US called "Dora the Explorer". Most of the country thinks those words don't rhyme, though apparently someone involved in its creation think they do.<BR/><BR/>* <I>the 'ah' vowel-before-/s/ 'rule'</I>: Lynne, is this rule invariant? I recently corrected a non-English speaker's pronunication of NASA as /nasa/, saying that /næsa/ was correct. Were they just using a non-American pronunciation for an American organization?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-63231294594371445852007-11-11T13:15:00.000+00:002007-11-11T13:15:00.000+00:00I actually did a little research on the 'added' an...I actually did a little research on the 'added' and 'omitted' r's during my brief foray into academic linguistics. It was of some interest to me since, being from Massachusetts, I often noted the assumption of non natives that Mass. residents spoke like Bostonians (If not '<A HREF="http://www.bertandi.net/listen.html" REL="nofollow">Bert and I</A>' clones).<BR/><BR/>I gather Lynn would be a better source than I, but I believe that the Connecticut river (just on the western side of which I was raised) is a basic border of this trait, and that people only a couple of towns east have noticeably closer to Boston pronunciation. This has become less pronounced (so to speak (ditto)) with the introduction of bridges, cars and mass communication, but it still holds. West of the connecticut (at least here in Western MA, we are closer to Albany, NY than Boston in speech habits.<BR/><BR/>I gather that the trait came from fashionable a fashionable London affectation that was also preserved in the Richmond, VA area. If anyone has seen (heard) the new Ken Burns effort "The War," the pronunciation by a Mobile, AL (nowhere near VA) lady of 'war,' which she understandably says quite a bit, sounds to my ear like it was impossible to utter without effort. It was something like /wah'ah/, whereas I would rhyme it with 'wore' (more or less).jhmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15024302748759726815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-60922205898031950972007-11-11T12:59:00.000+00:002007-11-11T12:59:00.000+00:00Complications compound when you consider changes o...Complications compound when you consider changes over time. Listen to dialogue in American films of the 30s, and compare with today. Vowel sounds used to be more clipped, closer to BrE. Today there's more drawling.<BR/><BR/>Dot Com has become Dart Calm. Suicide bombers are now suicide balmers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-82963877163506744142007-11-10T22:37:00.000+00:002007-11-10T22:37:00.000+00:00Thanks for the cartoon link, Paul.Italian doesn't ...Thanks for the cartoon link, Paul.<BR/><BR/>Italian doesn't have the /ae/ vowel in <I>bat</I>, it has the /a/ vowel in <I>father</I> (see <A HREF="http://italian.about.com/cs/pronunciation/ht/pronouncevowels.htm" REL="nofollow">here</A>. So, no, the BrE version is not more like the Italian. And the BrE version of Mexican food words, like <I>taco</I> and (in some people's pronunciation) <I>fajita</I>, also often substitute /ae/ for /a/--getting further away from the source language. I have started a few posts on this issue--but it's fairly complicated, so they might not see the light of Blogger for a while...lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-33374381803767257562007-11-10T22:16:00.000+00:002007-11-10T22:16:00.000+00:00lynneguist said...> The number of puns based on -e...lynneguist said...<BR/><BR/>> The number of puns based on -er/final a (not <BR/>> thinking of one right now!) hints that at the ends <BR/>> of words the sounds are perceived as being fairly <BR/>> similar. <BR/><BR/>A perfect example, although it is somewhat complicated by ignoring the <I>toona</I>/<I>tyuna</I> difference:<BR/><BR/>http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/t/tuna_fish.asp<BR/><BR/>> Like Dunce, I've been thrown for a loop by the <BR/>> BrE pronunciation of Tanya--and also of a lot of <BR/>> other 'foreign' words that have acquired the bat > vowel in BrE--like pasta.<BR/><BR/>Um, re: 'acquired'. I might be wrong here, but isn't the typical BrE (at least where I come from) <I>pasta</I> (with the bat vowel) closer to the Italian than the AmE <I>pahsta</I>?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02404232492060997411noreply@blogger.com