tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post2402069578893553535..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: saying 'please' in restaurantslynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger221125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-14827115833288785402023-01-01T21:37:32.755+00:002023-01-01T21:37:32.755+00:00Indeed! (I was a little boy when this post first a...Indeed! (I was a little boy when this post first appeared; and am reading it only now.)<br /><br />This bit in Geoff Dyer came to mind: “when I was a teenager, each new book represented an almost overwhelming addition to what I knew and felt.” That is how I feel, going through all these comments and considerations: overfull!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-16527109471861459802022-10-25T06:14:06.264+01:002022-10-25T06:14:06.264+01:00Funny, this Australian felt the opposite. Making r...Funny, this Australian felt the opposite. Making requests of restaurant staff without saying please feels slightly contemptuous to me. Even in a pub I would ask "Could I get two schooners of VB please" or an equivalent softener "Could I get two schooeys of VB mate?". I think it's kind of contextual.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-2421926113409482182020-08-24T18:48:09.303+01:002020-08-24T18:48:09.303+01:00BrE (Scot, 60+). Wow! This one still takes a bit o...BrE (Scot, 60+). Wow! This one still takes a bit of reading second time round. I feel that this whole politeness thing ties in with the “can I get” post”. Since commenting there, I’ve used my wife as an unknowing guinea pig. In general (and cordial) domestic contexts, I estimate that she says please about 65% of the time. The other 35% of the time, please is implied by tone of voice. And that’s part of the problem.<br /> I’m a Scot, my wife is English, and we sometimes misinterpret each other’s tones of voice. Not often, but it happens., and when it does, rhere is usually a regional cultural difference at play. Lynne’s BH sometimes thinks she’s bossy. She herself sometimes thinks that us family sound abrupt. I’m starting to wonder if tone of voice is something else that doesn’t always translate as intended.<br /> I have been lucky to have travelled in both the US and Europe (about twice a tear for nearly 30 years). I have never found either Americans or Europeans o be inherently impolite, on top of that, we watch far too much American tv. Yes, some things cause a momentary pause (oREGano, burglarise), but rarely bad manners (unless they are part of the story). I’m not sure I even notice whether or not characters say please. But I still struggle with “can I get”, and I think I’ve worked out why.<br /> Firstly, it sounds very abrupt, whether or not that’s the intention. Secondly, it’s now widely used by younger Brits, who seem to deliberately copy he abrupt delivery, apparently believing that rudeness was intended, and that’s still cool.Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-8032616121245318792017-09-06T13:27:31.546+01:002017-09-06T13:27:31.546+01:00I work in food service in the USA. Aside from '...I work in food service in the USA. Aside from 'please' or lack thereof, I notice that most of my American customers do not place orders with terms like 'I'll have' or 'I would like'. A majority now say 'I'll do [such and such dish]', or 'I'm gonna do a latte'. This disturbs me greatly; how does one 'do' food and drink? Rebecca Davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12442094178239871897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-71155810028593730602017-08-02T00:40:20.708+01:002017-08-02T00:40:20.708+01:00I've been re-reading the new comments on here ...I've been re-reading the new comments on here since the last time I visited the page and they're very interesting.<br /><br />Another point I've been thinking of is this: in the UK, the word "please" is so important that it can completely transform a request from being very rude to fairly polite (if not very polite).<br /><br />An example: in Britain sometimes I might walk into a cafe and simply say something like "Two coffees, please", without saying anything else like "Hello", "Good morning/afternoon", etc. This is usually regarded as being perfectly polite, (although obviously not as polite as it would have been if I said "Hello, I'd like to have two coffees" or something similar with a greeting). But if I'd walked into the cafe and simply said "Two coffees" without anything else, this would be regarded as extremely rude, just about the rudest thing you could say (unless you used swear words, which is very unlikely!) And using a phrase like "May/can I have two coffees?" without the "please" is only slightly better than saying "Two coffees".<br /><br />The point is: the one word "please" has the power to completely transform the phrase from being extremely rude to being fairly polite (if not very polite) in a UK context. That's how much of a difference it can make to a three word sentence in my experience.<br /><br />Also, other considerations like body language, tone of voice, facial expression, manner/mood, etc, are usually not enough to alter the reaction to the absence or presence of the word "please" in this type of situation. For example, someone could walk into the cafe with a very friendly manner, friendly body language, a nice tone of voice, a lovely smile, but if they still say just "Two coffees", without the "please", it will still be regarded as very rude by most people. Conversely, it's perfectly normal for someone to walk into a cafe with a rather gruff manner, unsmiling, looking annoyed, and as long as they say "Two coffees, please" there won't be a problem. The "please" makes up for everything else, and nothing — or very little — will usually make up for the absence of it.<br /><br />Perhaps I've exaggerated the situation in the UK a little (!) but not much.Andy JShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15819413906544791899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-23105039936159353652017-02-01T01:30:27.175+00:002017-02-01T01:30:27.175+00:00(Continued)
If that is on the right track, I can p...(Continued)<br />If that is on the right track, I can possibly understand something that has puzzled me in many of the comments despite their authors' rationalisation: how an added 'please' could be rude. Is it maybe because it offers the illusory appearance of choice to a minion who, being in an inferior position, does not have the option of refusing, thereby exposing the inequality? If so, I can see why, thinking that way, an American might be uncomfortable offering that illusion of choice to a underling British waiter, because it could force the ordering superior (and possibly the choice-lacking inferior) to face the unevenness of the relationship head on, which would destroy any comfortable thoughts of solidarity.<br /><br />In the Tedx talk, Lynne makes the point that Americans deflect compliments to bring things back on an even keel where the parties are equal, because "Our interaction has to be about equality. We all know we're not equals but we have to act like we're equal". Is there a clue in that as to why the otherwise freely-complimenting Americans do not as a rule compliment their waiters - at least while ordering: because the pretence of equality would be laughable?<br /><br />If the present system works for Americans then it works, and all the Americans here have said it does, so however it may appear to Brits it does not involve impoliteness or rudeness by American standards. But I cannot but doubt the proffered reasons, both anecdotal rationalisation and application of theory. Though I would genuinely like to be convinced by better evidence: the theory is so seductive.KeithDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10451059429340892054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-56911112286306152642017-02-01T01:28:47.430+00:002017-02-01T01:28:47.430+00:00A little strange, maybe, but I first read the blog...A little strange, maybe, but I first read the blog post, then read all the comments, then made my own comments on the fascinating comments, and only THEN watched the videos. Lynne, your talk is excellent! You get so much more across than is possible in a blog-post-plus-comment-responses, I suppose because typing is so slow relative to talking. I understand all your technical points now (at an overview level; I've not studied the theory apart from this). And I agree with them. In theory. Very (BrE) nice, attractively symmetrical theory that explains a lot.<br /><br />What I say next I say not as a Brit who you might expect to have beliefs about British and American politeness, but as a puzzled blog reader who believes he has grasped the essence of the theory underlying this blog post and is now unsure what to believe about American politeness.<br /><br />I have a problem: because I have no real recollection of ordering in US restaurants, the only example I have of American solidarity politeness in that context is Mr Johnson. People have remarked that the exchange as a whole is rude, but no one has said the ordering itself is impolite, and Lynne's only comment was that it could have been less polite. So, for all the admirable theory about positive face, I still can't see how the ordering interaction has anything to do with making the waiter, who is clearly subservient to "sir", feel good about himself. ["Oh waiter!" "Yes sir . . . I am your waiter and I am here to serve you. What can I get, hmm?" "Yes, I'd like a bowl of hot alphabet soup" . . . "OK sir! Coming right up"] It seems too one-sided for solidarity. Equality would be more like "What can I get you, bud?" "I'll have the soup. Make it hot!" "Sure".<br /><br />Now I feel forced to question whether the theory is rationalising rather than explaining the nature of ordering dialogues that have simply become the norm over the years, trying to put them in a positive light. If analysis according to the theory is correct - that an ordering exchange such as that in the video demonstrates solidarity politeness and pays attention to positive face - the only explanation for me is that the waiter embraces the clear inequality, expects the treatment he receives, feels the social structure to have been reinforced, and is somehow comforted by this. I know many commenters have remarked that the customer/waiter relationship does not involve inferiority, but that is not what I see in the video (nor the common-sense real-life reality). Yes, I know that it's Sesame Street and light-hearted, and I realise that Grover's obsequiousness is something I'd be unlikely to see from a real US waiter, but none of the Americans here saw a need to point that out for the benefit of the non-Americans, so I am assuming that the video isn't that far off: that the lopsidedness is probably overstated, but genuine.KeithDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10451059429340892054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-84196586533037870882017-01-31T20:30:43.582+00:002017-01-31T20:30:43.582+00:00Part 2
At some point, Graham's avatar becomes...Part 2<br /><br />At some point, Graham's avatar becomes the red clenched right fist emblematic of victory and solidarity atop the text SOLIDARITY POLITENESS! A pleasant touch of irony. I hope.<br /><br />I have sympathy for all three, and particularly for Graham, whose passion shines through. I do believe he 'loves this blog so much', which is why he keeps fighting because he believes that eventually he will get to a place where he will be content.<br /><br />I think Graham's difficulty in proving his point to Lynne and David is that he is relying on a single understanding (ie his) of all the words he uses. All those dictionary definitions that apparently agree with him use value-tinged words that in turn would need defining, and would turn out to be ‘operationali{s/z}ed’ differently in different cultures. Take 'respect' for one, dripping with subjectivity. I believe Graham would assert that Japanese culture places more emphasis on respect than Western culture in general. I would expect Lynne to say that respect is expressed in different forms of behaviour in different cultures, and David to say that what respect means to a Japanese is not the same thing that respect means to a Westerner (and probably that it means half-a-dozen different things to each of them).<br /><br />Of course Graham is right when he says Americans are less polite than please-saying Brits, using his working definition of politeness. And the overwhelming majority of American commenters are right when they say that please-saying Brits are ruder than Americans, using their working definition of politeness. And Lynne is right when she says that this is because the American and British forms of politeness – how their concepts are operationalised – are different. And David is right when he says it’s all very subjective and relative, and much more complicated than it looks at first glance.<br /><br />My view is that British politeness is formulaic, intended to forestall discomfort and embarrassment. I can do it with my eyes closed. The American politeness outlined by most commenters seems to be designed to preserve face. It sounds like really hard work to me - all that eye contact and smiling just to get a coffee! Puhlease!KeithDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10451059429340892054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-10100047806765896992017-01-31T20:28:48.984+00:002017-01-31T20:28:48.984+00:00Oh, how I sympathise with Graham NW, David C and L...Oh, how I sympathise with Graham NW, David C and Lynne! Such a long exchange with no resolution! In this comment I try to summarise the positions of the parties, and aim for a statement of why the differences remain, since I can’t resolve them. Because of length, this comment is in two parts. Having read that introduction, you may well consider that you’ve read far enough, but I do believe you may find something useful in my summarisation.<br /><br />Graham, using his everyday meaning of politeness, descries different <b>levels</b> of it in different cultures. Graham thinks Lynne and the academics are playing Humpty Dumpty with 'politeness' (and 'solidarity', and 'deference'): “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”<br /><br />Lynne says Graham can't use his everyday meaning of 'politeness' if he wants to talk about politeness, but must use her specialised one, which is different. Using hers, there are different <b>forms</b> of politeness, with more of one in one culture, more of another in the other. Lynne also implies that Graham shouldn’t use 'courtesy' and 'considerate' as absolutes, since all these words are culturally determined.<br /><br />Graham says: but all dictionaries define ‘politeness’ using similar words that mean to me precisely what I understand them to mean. David says dictionaries define subjective words using subjective words and are therefore circular. Lynne says dictionaries define a construct but don't capture how it is operationali{s/z}ed (lovely word!).<br /><br />Cue excellent analogy of tea. Graham eventually comes to grips with the analogy but fails to take it where he might: that tea in Britain is hot and tea in America is iced, so what makes tea good in Britain is not necessarily what makes tea good in America. For example, tea in Britain normally needs milk to make it acceptable, whereas milk in American iced tea would be dreadful. For 'milk’ and ‘tea' read 'please’ and ‘politeness'. And possibly for 'lemon’ and ‘tea' read 'friendliness’ and ‘politeness'. Japan would reject both, of course, having spent a long ceremonial time making it with just tea and water. And bowing.<br /><br />Graham says theoreticians have used loaded words in their theory of politeness and you can't escape such inherent value judgements. To me it seems perverse of academics to use freighted words for technical concepts and then expect people to ignore the freight and learn the new, neutral definitions – a process that leads to excluding anyone not in the know. OK, academics need precision, but why not start with neutral terms? Lynne and David let this one pass. I think it is implicit that Lynne believes the in-crowd understand the specialised meanings, but to my mind it's not that easy to shake off unconscious bias from the understanding of a lifetime. However, I don't buy Graham's line that the originators of the theory had an agenda and chose terms to further it.<br /><br />David says there is American politeness and English politeness and they seem to be different, and uses more technical terms that include the word 'politeness' in the theoretical sense, which isn't the same sense that 'politeness' has in everyday speech. David challenges Graham's absolute statements but is generally emolliently analytical (or possibly analytically emollient).<br /><br />And so it goes, round and round. Until it just . . . stops.KeithDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10451059429340892054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-54125422486115575842017-01-31T20:04:12.662+00:002017-01-31T20:04:12.662+00:00Re passive-aggressive: I (British) have only a haz...Re passive-aggressive: I (British) have only a hazy idea of what this is. I understand this American-sourced concept but I cannot give examples, and I struggle to identify it, or to identify with it even when it is pointed out to me, as in Lynne's ticket queue example. About that example: quiet sighing and tutting I would say was simply mild frustration or annoyance, letting off a bit of steam with the possibly of creating a bond with like-minded fellow-sufferers. But I accept that signs of irritation meant to be detected by the person struggling could well fit the definition. (In that situation, if it's a Brit struggling, please (!) wait for them to look for, or ask for, help before pressing it on them in what they may well view as active-aggression.)<br /><br />Lynne, if you're planning to write about Meg's 'I wouldn't mind a cup of tea,' my reading is that it is more what an American would possibly call 'needy' (though I've probably got that wrong too) than passive-aggressive. It is simply a feeler, thrown out there to see if anyone nibbles, and which intentionally leaves open the question of who (if anyone) might make the tea in question. A common answer would be along the lines of 'Well make yourself one then. And make one for me while you're about it'. In this disguised request there is none of the imperative sense that the majority of AME speakers commenting above find in requests with added 'please'. Passive: yes; aggressive: no.KeithDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10451059429340892054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-71766134220167048652016-07-31T10:24:16.284+01:002016-07-31T10:24:16.284+01:00I'd be interested in a 'sorry' post, L...I'd be interested in a 'sorry' post, Lynne. In the UK we often use it to mean 'I beg your pardon' if we haven't heard what someone has said and we want them to repeat it. Of course, there are a multitude of other expressions which also mean 'Please repeat that', such as 'Pardon?' or Excuse me?', and informally 'What?', 'Eh?', or (my favourite) 'Come again?' (orig. AusE, I believe). The one which grates on me is 'Say again' - it sounds extremely rude to me, almost a command/demand, or 'radio speak' (eg pilot to controller). CaptainSiCohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18025513284180590274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-69740776326739021472016-07-20T22:39:10.657+01:002016-07-20T22:39:10.657+01:00They've failed to mention that that was comple...They've failed to mention that that was completely plagiarized from an Italian place (and possibly others). <br /><br />http://vi.sualize.us/un_caffe_per_favore_life_is_good_picture_AEBm.htmllynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-40467085724613443672016-07-20T19:21:35.736+01:002016-07-20T19:21:35.736+01:00The July 20, 2016, Washington Post has a story abo...The July 20, 2016, <i>Washington Post</i> has a story about a cafe in Virginia that charges people extra if they don't say, "Please": "<a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2016/07/20/if-you-forget-to-say-please-while-ordering-coffee-this-virginia-cafe-will-charge-you-extra/" rel="nofollow">If You Forget to Say ‘Please’ While Ordering Coffee, This Virginia Cafe Will Charge You Extra</a>"Steve Dunhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11970801099772755392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-31915928829784527612015-10-05T23:59:43.113+01:002015-10-05T23:59:43.113+01:00When I worked as a waitress in a small town in Ame...When I worked as a waitress in a small town in America, by and far the most common thing I customers said to me was, "I'll take the X." Sometimes even multiple times. "I'll take the steak, and I'll take that medium-rare. And I'll take the steak fries." "Would you like anything to drink?" "Yes, I'll take a water."<br /><br />I'd say customers used "I'll take" at least once in their order about 80% of all interactions. It was intensely irritating to me.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17356590864983749041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-88179599935420145262015-09-03T13:05:23.329+01:002015-09-03T13:05:23.329+01:00OK Biil, ket's re-write the scenario:
• You o...OK Biil, ket's re-write the scenario:<br /><br /><i>• You or I or some other BrE speaker is at the same table as one of those many Americans who <br /><br /><b>INSERT<br />don't say please when ordering from a waiter<br /><br />• The British observer asks the American speaker why he or she doesn't say please.<br /><br />• The American speaker detects a challenge to his or her politeness and over-reacts somewhat, and is thus for the moment feels<br />END INSERT</b><br /><br /> that please is inappropriate when ordering from a waiter. <br /><br /><b>INSERT<br />Even though on reflection they would not make such an extreme claim<br />END INSERT</b><br /><br />• The British observer asks the American speaker why he or she used that particular tone of voice and wording, and why he or she avoided wording such as please<br /><br />• The American speaker replies Well it just seems the polite way to speak. ASSERTION ONE</i><br /><br />I think the argument still stands: that ASSERTION ONE is not a deliberate deception. <br /><br />But what drove some AmE-speakers into making the exaggerated implication that you detect? <br /><br />A more recent thread on please, <a href="http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.co.uk/2015/08/please-find-attached.html?showComment=1441217421455" rel="nofollow">please find attached...</a> didn't create the same agitation. I think the explosive factor is not the <b>word</b> <i>please</i>, not the <b>variation in use</b>, which is what this blog displays all the time. The <b>judgement</b> made on the basis of dialect difference is an irritant, but surely not so explosive as we've seen on this thread. The crucial factor I think is that in a discussion of <i><b>politeness</b></i> stating a judgement is taken as <b>a criticism and an insult</b>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-35288327011442598382015-09-02T19:31:49.711+01:002015-09-02T19:31:49.711+01:00Not to jump into the argument at the end of the po...Not to jump into the argument at the end of the post, but one part I think might be of interest...<br /><br />David Crosbie said: <br /><i>• You or I or some other BrE speaker is at the same table as one of those many Americans who feel that <b>please is inappropriate</b> when ordering from a waiter.</i><br /><br />I don't think that if you asked any AmE speaker, that they would say that "Please" is inappropriate when talking to a waiter. It just isn't as implicitly important as it appears to be in BrE.<br />A lot of the discussion seems to imply that, but I think that comes from trying to describe something that you have never thought needed explanation.<br />Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-85166828712623278792014-12-03T04:24:14.593+00:002014-12-03T04:24:14.593+00:00Over on the You're welcome thread I've sug...Over on the <a href="http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/youre-welcome.html" rel="nofollow">You're welcome thread</a> I've suggested that <b>please</b> in a restaurant context may be no more than a <b>marker</b> signalling 'This is my order'.<br /><br />As long as customer and waiter signal their turns as expected, both are comfortable and neither is in danger of losing face. Brits and Americans stick to the script of expected markers. It only starts to feel impolite when somebody strays from the script.<br /><br />If I'm right, then <b>I'll have</b> and <b>Can I get</b> are exact equivalents of <b>please</b> in different scripts (although we seem to be gradually adopting American scripts here). They're not <b>informing</b> the waiter or <b>requesting information</b> about availability — any more than <b>please</b> is asking a favour.<br /><br />So, as I see it, when you Americans hear us say <i>Steak and chips please</i>, we're not putting on a show of mock courtesy, we're just doing what you do with a different form of words.<br /><br />If we were ordering by email, we'd write <b>Order</b> in the <b>Subject</b> box. It's just a handy signal.<br /><br />Unfortunately, when we hear you say <i>Steak and chips</i> <b>without</b> please, we feel the absence of the 'This is my order' signal. And if we're not so sympathetic to your culture, we interpret that absence as rudeness. <br /><br />[It can work the other way when we don't say <i>You're welcome</i>.]David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-54495161890435363142014-09-11T02:16:12.042+01:002014-09-11T02:16:12.042+01:00Something here does not compute.
If the explanatio...Something here does not compute.<br />If the explanation for Americans' boorish behaviour towards waiters is essentially mean-spiritedness (they don't see why they should say 'please' or 'thank you' to people who are being paid to serve them) then why would those same mean-spirited Americans shower those same waiters with embarassingly huge tips?<br />It doesn't make sense.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-67800674286849993582014-07-28T18:04:03.502+01:002014-07-28T18:04:03.502+01:00Oh, and P.S. Gina, in this country one certainly d...Oh, and P.S. Gina, in this country one certainly does say "Please" and "Thank you" to bus drivers, checkout operators, librarians, etc. It's quite normal, when getting off a bus, to say "Thank you, driver!" and in the days when one bought tickets to a destination one would say "Two to XXX, please", or whatever - as, indeed, one still says when buying railway tickets in person from a person (increasingly rare, these days!).Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-20260203056922277602014-07-28T18:01:43.307+01:002014-07-28T18:01:43.307+01:00That is interesting, Gina. In my (British) memory...That is interesting, Gina. In my (British) memory, "please" and "thank you" were certainly used by teachers, although they were probably split about 50:50 between those who said "Please sit down" and those who just said "Sit down". Either way, it was a command and we interpreted it as such!<br /><br />I was at a family wedding on Saturday, and I noticed, almost without noticing, that people said "Please" to the catering staff as a matter of course: "Please may we have another bottle of red wine - no, make that two bottles - and another bottle of water." To which she confirmed: "Two bottles of red wine and a bottle of water?" and we said "Yes please." Or if she said "I'll bring that right away" as she did once, we promptly said "Oh, thank you!" and then thanked her again when she brought it. Mind you, it is not our custom to say "You're welcome!" when people thank us....<br /><br />Meanwhile, I don't know if I've already said this - this conversation is very long and has gone on for some time - but some years ago now my daughter quipped that all you really needed to know how to say in a foreign language was, "Two beers, please!" I repeated this to a friendly waitress in Warsaw, and she said wryly that "Most people don't bother with the please!" I wonder whether the "most people" would be Americans, as certainly in all the European languages I know one would say "Please"....Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-16741843686522302472014-07-27T17:33:07.027+01:002014-07-27T17:33:07.027+01:00There are so many different schools of thought on ...There are so many different schools of thought on please and thank you. As a high school teacher, I have found that please and thank you are very much over used.<br />Please implies that they are doing me a favor...please pass your papers forward or please be seated. I would rather say you may pass your papers forward or you may be seated. That takes the begging out of my request. The students can choose to do it or not but I am not going to sound like I am begging.<br />I reserve my pleases for favors that my students do for me that is not part of their job description as a student. Would you please shut the door or turn on the lights or pass out these papers. Those are genuine favors that deserve a please. <br />I also do not expect someone to say to me please grade my paper or please give me a test. That is my job that I am getting paid for.<br />I do not believe you should have to feel like you need to say please for someone to do the job they are being paid to do. Why would a waiter be any different that a bus driver; you do not say please let me off at this place. Or how about a librarian; would you ask to please check out a book or a grocery clerk to please ring up the groceries. I am not trying to be rude to people but there are other ways to be polite by asking how their day was and listening and commenting on what they say. <br />The same goes for thank you. If I tell a student thank you for turning in a paper, then I am implied that they did me a favor. Instead, I may say great job getting your work completed on time or you did a good job of being team leader for that project and keeping everyone on task. And I smile to show my thanks for them doing what they are supposed to be doing.<br />I would not say thank you for to a waiter (but I would leave a good time as a thank you) no more that I would say thank you to a sales person who sold me clothing. I smile and would tell them to have a good day.Ginanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-76478651123527458042014-05-19T11:49:56.782+01:002014-05-19T11:49:56.782+01:00It's easy to disagree with me if you put nonse...<i>It's easy to disagree with me if you put nonsense into my mouth. But I assert no such thing.</i><br /><br />Sorry, David, I must have misunderstood you. I withdraw that remark.<br /><br />But I wonder what, specifically, you were referring to when you wrote<br /><br /><i>The way you and I and the bulk of British English speakers habitually use the word [polite] does not correspond exactly to what happens all those contexts where many American English speakers use the word. This is empirical observation...</i><br /><br />Thank you, by the way, for taking me seriously and for tolerating my abrasive style without taking offence.<br /><br />I plan to respond to your second post before too long.Graham N Witlesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13981948291853270041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-85170215132964255142014-05-16T18:41:58.864+01:002014-05-16T18:41:58.864+01:00OK, Graham, this is what I do assert.
First a sce...OK, Graham, this is what I <b>do</b> assert.<br /><br />First a scenario. <br />• You or I or some other BrE speaker is at the same table as one of those many Americans who feel that <i>please</i> is inappropriate when ordering from a waiter. <br /><br />• The British observer asks the American speaker why he or she used that particular tone of voice and wording, and why he or she avoided wording such as <i>please</i><br /><br />• The American speaker replies <i>Well it just seems the polite way to speak.</i> ASSERTION ONE<br /><br />• Questioned further, the American speaker reveals that he or she was taught that true politeness is a mark of <b>respect</b> ASSERTION TWO<br /><br />• You or some other BrE speaker while sitting at a nearby table overhears the order and the assertions, and reacts negatively <i>What i heard was not exactly respect and certainly not politeness. It was simply friendliness</i> ASSERTION THREE<br /><br />Now what is the status of these three different assertions? <br /><br />ASSERTION ONE cannot be false — unless, of course, the speaker is deliberately lying. If he or she sincerely says <i>This is what I feel</i>, it can't be contradicted. The feeling may be an illusion., but that's another matter entirely.<br /><br />ASSERTION TWO is ambiguous. It can be:<br />STRONG: 'This way of speaking is how to show respect'<br />or<br />WEAK: 'This way of speaking is how I try to show repeat'<br /><br />The STRONG version may or may not be accurate; what matters is that it's the speaker's <b>belief</b>. It is thus <b>data</b> of a sort, which any objective description should encompass.<br /><br />The WEAK version is incontestably true — unless the speaker is lying.<br /> <br />ASSERTION THREE is also ambiguous, although one version seems the more likely intention<br />WEAK (not so likely): 'This form of words is more like what I call <i>friendly</i> than what I call <i>polite</i>.'<br />STRONG (more likely): 'That form of words is not polite. The speaker is misguided in thinking that it is.'<br /><br />The WEAK version is something that I might assert. I wouldn't be lying, so it couldn't be gainsaid.<br /><br />The STRONG version is a highly contentious, highly subjective judgement. The Bellman said <i>What I say three times is true</i> but that was in a nonsense poem. The only 'facts' backing the judgement are themselves perceptions based on the premise that the conclusion is true — the original, now rare, meaning of <i>begging the question</i>.<br /><br />So what I assert is this:<br /><br />• that ASSERTION ONE is valid<br />• that the WEAK version of ASSERTION TWO is valid<br />• that the WEAK version of ASSERTION THREE is more or less what I would myself assert<br />• that the STRONG version of ASSERTION THREE is invalid by reason of circularity<br /><br />Returning to the scenario:<br /> <br />• At yet another table, Lynne or some other linguist interested in Pragmatics overhears the preceding order and discussion of the order. She or he interprets the assertions thus:<br /><br />ASSERTION TWO is based on attitudes and practices that in Politeness are termed <b>solidarity politeness</b><br /><br />ASSERTION THREE is based on attitudes and practices that are termed <b>deference politeness</b><br /><br />The terms are not in everyday use, because few people are aware of the difference between British and American politeness. Most of us were astonished by the force of argument used on this tread by speakers from the side of the Atlantic opposite to our own. And they're not in use because fewer people still feel the need to analyse these differences — <b>and all other differences</b> — in perceptions and practices of politeness. Shock horror! Academics engaged in abstract analysis use technical terms and ordinary punters don't!David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-10513560375437861202014-05-15T23:45:57.486+01:002014-05-15T23:45:57.486+01:00Graham
no dictionary compiler appears to have obs...Graham<br /><br /><i>no dictionary compiler appears to have observed, empirically or otherwise, that Americans consider friendliness to be a variety of politeness as you implicitly assert.</i><br /><br />It's easy to disagree with me if you put nonsense into my mouth. But I assert no such thing.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-29438335305003458922014-05-15T17:01:25.649+01:002014-05-15T17:01:25.649+01:00Bryn:
I agree with everything you say except that ...Bryn:<br />I agree with everything you say except that word 'too' in the first sentence. Semantics here are a problem as the nomenclature of this theory is systematically biased.<br /><br />David:<br />I see what you mean, but <i>no</i> dictionary compiler appears to have observed, empirically or otherwise, that Americans consider friendliness to be a variety of politeness as you implicitly assert..<br /><br />Lynne:<br />When physicists talk about ‘light’, they mean the same thing that you or I mean by it. They just have a deeper understanding of what it actually is, in terms of electromagnetism. The technical term they chose was the natural language term for the thing they were describing.<br />For your purposes, a better example would have been ‘spin’ and ‘colour’, which are properties of the subatomic particles known as ‘quarks’. Those technical terms are really quite unrelated to the generally understood meanings of the words ‘spin’ and ‘colour’.<br />The phenomena that those words describe are entirely beyond human experience, so there is no possibility of using natural language to describe them.<br />That is not the case with the phenomena that we are dealing with here, however.<br />There are perfectly obvious and satisfactory natural language words for civility, cordiality and courtesy, (namely ‘civility’, ‘cordiality’ and ‘courtesy’!) but the theoreticians choose to use words that are not just unnecessarily confusing, but, as I have pointed out previously, <i>systematically misleading</i>.<br />It's all very well saying that sometimes you distinguish between 'first order' and 'second order' politeness. More often than not you don’t, and you seem quite happy to live with the false conclusions that people draw when they conflate the two. I could point out a whole bunch of examples in this thread alone, where that has happened. <br />So it’s a bit rich to accuse me of deliberate miscommunication when all I am doing is sticking to the conventional meaning of words.Graham N Witlesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13981948291853270041noreply@blogger.com