tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post3072198554793545028..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: diagramming sentenceslynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-58612863197737881762014-04-10T00:39:20.802+01:002014-04-10T00:39:20.802+01:00I graduated high school in Massachusetts in 2007.
...I graduated high school in Massachusetts in 2007.<br /><br />I never had any in depth training in grammar.<br /><br /><br />I've picked up most of the rules of English grammar through continuous pleasure reading, but I mostly lack the meta-language to describe those rules.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02138260302522477243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-17126142271268583242012-09-27T12:58:07.007+01:002012-09-27T12:58:07.007+01:00Under circumstances that even most British readers...Under circumstances that even most British readers won't recognise I was coached for an exam in 1955 when I was ten. The teacher used the term <i>predicate</i> in what may or may not have been the sense that she had been taught. It's not how I would use the term now.<br /><br />I went on to a posh secondary school which was (a) traditional in many ways but (b) rich enough to employ bright young teachers who had no truck with traditional grammar. In one class — not mine — an old-established teacher taught what I think was a mixture of parsing and 'clause analysis'. It was syntax, anyway, and he made a game of it which he called 'tick-tock analysis'. A boy who later became a great friend was baffled and frustrated beyond endurance. He failed completely to understand this grammar teaching, and yet he was by a mile the finest prose stylist of our year.<br /><br />About fifteen years later I was doing 'observation' as a preparation to a teaching certificate. To assist in the class I was observing, I was talking to students (about 12 years old, I think) doing worksheets which might be called 'grammar-lite'. A boy was underlining the <b>nouns</b> to show understanding of the definition <i>A noun is the name of a person, place or thing.</i> I saw that he'd underlined <i>yellow</i> in a sentence about a yellow ball or something. I sought to put him straight by directing him to the definition, but he quite reasonably retorted<i>"But it is a name! It's the name of a colour!"</i><br /><br />The people (in Britain) who trained English teachers in the post-war years took seriously the claimed link between grammar instruction and writing ability. So they did a statistical analysis and found no correlation.<br /><br />Such grammar teaching as lingered around was based on semantically defined parts of speech, oversimplified clause syntax and identification circularly defined subordinate clauses. This was bulked out with the teaching of shibboleths. In short, grammar teaching was rubbish. It was probably inevitable that it was abolished for a generation or so. Then we could start afresh with decent grammar teaching.<br /><br />Diagrams like yours are not unknown in Britain. They are one form of '<i>mind map</i>' used to organise notes, essay plans etc.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-74548434015540192432012-09-27T05:11:30.269+01:002012-09-27T05:11:30.269+01:00I, too, did grammar and learned how to diagram sen...I, too, did grammar and learned how to diagram sentences in my American Catholic grade school and high school. That would have been around the late 90s. I remember being surprised upon entering high school that many of my fellow students who had gone to a public grade school had not been taught any grammar before. I loved it. It reminds me of doing math, except with words! It has also been invaluable in learning foreign languages and with academic writing (knowing where to place the commas, not to split the infinitives, etc.).Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14644859183662353936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-15790708451667851132010-11-12T18:02:09.655+00:002010-11-12T18:02:09.655+00:00i was diagraming sentences in elementary school in...i was diagraming sentences in elementary school in georgia in the early 80's - don't think this ever went out of style for teaching. It was always much more interesting in regards to holding my attention in class. I was always bored and wound up skipping a whole grade to counter my boredom all through school. Though I am now studying astrophysics-diagraming sentences left a mark on my memory. I certainly hope children today learn this tool for grammar though I believe in this modern world our language is doomed for texting and shorthand and poor communication skills. LOL<br />ttyl<br />-dAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-77448508169042385272010-10-02T00:28:08.251+01:002010-10-02T00:28:08.251+01:00It's been 2 years since the last comment on th...It's been 2 years since the last comment on this post, but I just had to post a comment. I learned to diagram sentences in the Washington DC public schools system during the late 50s and early 60s. I absolutely loved it! While I believe I was born with a natural talent for language arts (majored in linguistics and minored in French i college), diagramming sentences went a long way in helping me understand English grammar. The fact that it, as well as grammar, are rarely taught these days may be one reason so many students come out of school barely able to write grammatically correct sentences and why basic writing (formerly called "remedial English") courses abound at community colleges.Patricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14607065035443822357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-80247807974934403842010-10-02T00:26:43.655+01:002010-10-02T00:26:43.655+01:00It's been 2 years since the last comment on th...It's been 2 years since the last comment on this post but really wanted to comment on this subject. I learned to diagram sentences in the Washington DC public schools system during the late 50s and early 60s. I absolutely loved it! While I believe I was born with a natural talent for language arts (majored in linguistics and minored in French in college), diagramming sentences went a long way in helping me understand English grammar and write well. The fact that it, as well as grammar, are rarely taught these days may be one reason so many students come out of high school barely able to write grammatically correct sentences and why basic writing (formerly called "remedial English") courses abound at community colleges in this country.Patricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14607065035443822357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-4255054214644104072008-09-25T20:28:00.000+01:002008-09-25T20:28:00.000+01:00Simply fantastic! My Catholic elementary school wa...Simply fantastic! My Catholic elementary school was most certainly not on the cutting edge of the US education system, so I, too, waded through sentence diagramming in the 1980s. All those grammar and phonics classes obviously didn't help me much, as evidenced by this post, but it invariably comes up in conversation, particularly when discussing the nuances of the English language with non-native speakers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-48133859763378828132008-07-06T03:01:00.000+01:002008-07-06T03:01:00.000+01:00So I'm a couple of months late here, but I felt li...So I'm a couple of months late here, but I felt like chirping in anyway. I graduated from a public high school in the US in 2005, and studied grammar quite a bit, especially in 7th grade when I was about 12. I loved diagramming sentences, and seeing the preamble to the constitution properly drawn up and diagrammed brought a smile to my face. I think the logicalness of diagramming appealed to me (I'm studying math now in college). So studying grammar isn't necessarily dying out these days.<BR/><BR/>And I also learned the other style that Sili brought up, with the squiggly lines and boxes around certain parts of speech. I don't remember much, but I distinctly recall underlining the subject and double underlining the predicate, along with various other boxes and circles and such for other parts of speech.<BR/><BR/>And having both the ability to diagram sentences and identify parts of speech only aided and abetted learning Spanish as a second language, which then created a sort of feedback loop into my understanding of English grammar.mamunipsaqhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12882979194142312172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9071063904125236242008-05-11T01:17:00.000+01:002008-05-11T01:17:00.000+01:00I have a friend who uses the word "i'll" at the en...I have a friend who uses the word "i'll" at the end of some of their sentence. I know it is abbrevated for I will. Can you tell me what language this originated from?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-21376665054427397292008-05-11T01:13:00.000+01:002008-05-11T01:13:00.000+01:00I have a question for you. Can you tell me what l...I have a question for you. Can you tell me what language this word is. I have been talking to a friend on line and they end some of their sentences using the word "i'll". I know this is short for I will, but don't know where "i'll" originates from. Can you help me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-80604737264387121342008-03-13T00:34:00.000+00:002008-03-13T00:34:00.000+00:00Yowsa, a topic close to my heart. I never diagram...Yowsa, a topic close to my heart. I never diagrammed sentences, but I had two demanding English teachers (5th and 9th grade) in Texas that grilled us in grammar usage and identification. My kids (attending a UK local secondary school) don't know a direct object from an indirect one, or what a transitive verb is, etc. When they ask me to proofread their papers, we don't even have a common set of terms which I can use to explain why they've written a poor sentence. Being teenagers, they chuckle and dismiss my despair as a nerdy and obsessive. How I WISH the school would spend a little less time on multi-subject projects and more on good v. bad sentence structure. Bring sentence diagramming across the pond, I say! I wish I could say my kids' French studies had clarified matters, but there seems to be too much time spent memorizing lines for the exams, rather than actually studying the language. Sorry if I have insulted any Brit readers here. The science and math programmes (Br/E) have been outstanding, I should mention!peeling a fighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05108645712925359359noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-74272614440612658452008-03-01T21:44:00.000+00:002008-03-01T21:44:00.000+00:00I diagrammed many a sentence in a Catholic grammar...I diagrammed many a sentence in a Catholic grammar school in NY from 4th to 6th grade in the early 80s. Sister Virgina. I'll never forget her. She had us memorize a huge list of prepositions (among other things)...about, above, after, against, along, among, around, at...it was a really solid education that has stuck with me to this day.<BR/><BR/>I loved it. Someone mentioned earlier that it's great for building analytical skills, and I couldn't agree more. I've been applying frameworks like those diagrams to everyday problems ever since. <BR/><BR/>As an American living in the UK--about to celebrate my 4th anniversary this month--I've had many a conversation with my English colleagues about sentence structure and the ways we were taught...just the other day, I threw out "independent clause" and "dangling modifier" (two things that I think are relatively straightforward) and they all looked at me like I was crazy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-66132652364733363952008-02-11T20:31:00.000+00:002008-02-11T20:31:00.000+00:0055 from upstate NY. We dissected a LOT, especiall...55 from upstate NY. We dissected a LOT, especially in 8th grade, which would have been 1966.Roger Owen Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05298172138307632062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-57990430625596904892008-02-08T19:11:00.000+00:002008-02-08T19:11:00.000+00:00I attended a Catholic grammar school in the U.S. t...I attended a Catholic grammar school in the U.S. through fourth grade (mid-'80s). I learned sentence diagramming there, though probably not overly complex ones at that age. After that I switched to a public high school where it was never mentioned. <BR/><BR/>In fact, very little actual grammar was taught in public school. I picked up some more almost by accident when I started studying French in high school. It's difficult to learn how to conjugate French verbs when you don't know the names of the tenses in English...<BR/><BR/>I also took two years of Latin in high school (the most that was offered). I wish I could have studied more, actually. It was a great help learning English vocabulary and also tying together knowledge of French and other romance languages. It saddens me to think that these types of programs are disappearing now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-57677815790485684602008-02-01T23:33:00.000+00:002008-02-01T23:33:00.000+00:00In Denmark I've learned to analyse sentences.This ...In Denmark I've learned to <EM>analyse</EM> sentences.<BR/><BR/>This involves marking the verb with an O, the subject with X, the (direct) object with a triangle, the indirect object with a square and prepositional phrases with a squiggly line. In Latin many many years later I was additionally taught to mark attributives with a 'v'.<BR/><BR/>This mainly served the purpose of learning how to place commas in Danish - of course the system now is even more of a shambles than it was then, now that they're tried to 'simplify' it.<BR/><BR/>Funnily enough I never enjoyed language classes - the only thing I found remotely interesting was grammar and we didn't do much of that, really. (Though by the time I was taught German, this certainly didn't hold my attention, either, so in all likelihood it's just me who's irreparably contrarian.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-13350478245320133482008-01-26T15:26:00.000+00:002008-01-26T15:26:00.000+00:00That's true of traditional grammar teaching, jhm--...That's true of traditional grammar teaching, jhm--for example the claim that there are 8 parts of speech. Also some prescriptive rules (e.g. 'don't end a sentence with a preposition') are illogically based on what can/can't be done in Latin, rather than what English can/should do.<BR/><BR/>I have to disagree w/ xcalibr39 re the bassackwardness of learning English grammar before learning a second language. After all, when teaching how to use, say, adverbs in French, the teacher usually has to relate it to what students know about adverbs in English. So, it'd be good to know what an adverb is before you start learning formal grammar in that way. (Of course, if you're learning the second language in a more natural way, say, through immersion, then there might not be any formal grammar teaching anyhow, so you'll never learn what an adverb is--at least not at a conscious level).lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-12056885532479267522008-01-26T15:15:00.000+00:002008-01-26T15:15:00.000+00:00What xcalibr39 wrote reminds me to ask if anyone h...What xcalibr39 wrote reminds me to ask if anyone has an opinion on a vague recollection that I once heard that since Latin (or perhaps a combination of Latin and Ancient Greek) grammar was used as a template for the study of English grammar, and that the two are different in meaningful ways, a situation was created wherein English grammar is (or was) usually taught in a less than a logically optimal way. I don't claim to know what these "meaningful" differences might be; and I don't recall much formal grammar from school in any event, but the idea doesn't sound all that far fetched.jhmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15024302748759726815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-82382822001043128342008-01-25T15:45:00.000+00:002008-01-25T15:45:00.000+00:00That reminds me of my third grade teacher, who had...That reminds me of my third grade teacher, who had us play a game in which you had to challenge your classmates to think of a word that was spelled with a particular double letter. (If they failed, you had to prove it was a do-able problem by spelling such a word.) My first try was double-A. My teacher challenged me, and I said 'bazaar'. She said that wasn't fair. On my next try, I said double-I. She challenged me again, and I said 'skiing'. She (a Norwegian immigrant) said: "That's not an English word!" Had I been a little more linguistically sophisticated at age 8, I would have said: "Then how do you account for the '-ing' suffix?" <BR/><BR/>But the moral of the story is: it doesn't pay to be a smart aleck in class. Unless you count the moral victory of embarrassing the teacher.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-52674766725071257452008-01-25T15:30:00.000+00:002008-01-25T15:30:00.000+00:00I was taught to diagram sentences in 6-8 grade (In...I was taught to diagram sentences in 6-8 grade (Indiana). Most of my classmates found it tedious, while a friend and I instead spent most of our time trying to come up with sentences that would cause problems for our teachers. That would have been very good linguistics training, but would you believe we were punished for it?! OK, actually the punishments were for repeatedly using the word "balls" in the aforementioned problem sentences, but still....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-75412554031419332282008-01-24T06:05:00.000+00:002008-01-24T06:05:00.000+00:00[Sig: Brit, in US 37 yrs] @Canadian. Seems to me t...[Sig: Brit, in US 37 yrs] <BR/><BR/>@Canadian. <BR/><BR/>Seems to me the point got lost because diagramming concentrates not on the purpose of the exercise but on its shape. In my UK schooldays (class of 56) it was called parsing, and this act of identifying parts of speech inevitably results in some sort of diagram, whether on the blackboard or within the mind. But it’s the parsing that counts, not the resultant shape. When we were asked to parse a sentence, the concept of diagram never arose. I can still distinguish between gerund and gerundive, with no diagram in sight or mind.<BR/><BR/>You raise another interesting point. What language should one learn first, in order best to learn others. To my mind, learning English grammar first, then French, then Latin, is bass-ackwards; but it doesn’t matter too much in the end, so long as you understand all. However, I’d choose Latin and Greek first, then Scandinavian and German. English, as a bastard language that mixes all of the above, comes last. English appears to have almost no structure or pronunciation rules at all. All I can say is, I’m glad I understand it quite well, but sympathize with those still struggling with it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-5356236698077748822008-01-23T23:59:00.000+00:002008-01-23T23:59:00.000+00:00Yes, Traff, it's insure, and that was correct at t...Yes, Traff, it's <I>insure</I>, and that was correct at the time. The spelling distinction between <I>insure</I> and <I>ensure</I> came later. (So, like <I>inquire</I>/<I>enquire</I> and some other <I>in-/en-</I> pairs, the spellings were fairly interchangeable.) Here's the OED's first definition for <I>insure</I>:<BR/><BR/>1. trans. To make (a person) sure (of a thing); to give security to (a person) for the fulfilment of something: cf. ASSURE v. 9, ENSURE v. 1, 2. Obs.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-69928258546685135182008-01-23T21:32:00.000+00:002008-01-23T21:32:00.000+00:00I went to school in California in the '50's and '6...I went to school in California in the '50's and '60's. We were introduced to diagramming sentences in, as I recall, seventh grade (age 12). We didn't do a lot of it, however. I haven't felt the need to do it since then, either.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-65674397354494255572008-01-23T21:27:00.000+00:002008-01-23T21:27:00.000+00:00Does the US constitution really say "insure domest...Does the US constitution really say "insure domestic tranquility"???<BR/><BR/>Surely that should be "ensure"?? If they really mean "insure", how can I make a claim??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-76509318255407533412008-01-23T14:12:00.000+00:002008-01-23T14:12:00.000+00:00This is fascinating, thank you. I am English and w...This is fascinating, thank you. I am English and went to school in the U.S. for three years (ages 7-10). I learned more English grammar than I was ever taught on my return to English school (although my knowledge of sentence diagramming solely from reading Laura Ingalls Wilder's novels). Aged 11, I went to a grammar school where I was lucky enough to learn Latin. The English grammar I'd been taught in the U.S. was a big help. I went on to study modern languages at university and wished I knew more about my own language.<BR/><BR/>I think I can see both sides of the coin. I think grammar is important and I would have liked to have had better English language teaching when I was at school in the U.K. But I also think that British English is flexible, evolving and very much alive. I think other modern languages (French, perhaps) where grammar is more prescriptive, suffer somewhat because of this.Little Britainerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07483674331108503769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-88204340228364562802008-01-22T17:10:00.000+00:002008-01-22T17:10:00.000+00:00I went to school in the US during the 70's, when s...I went to school in the US during the 70's, when so many traditional teaching methods were abandoned. Yet, I did learn how to diagram a sentence and loved it. It's like solving a word puzzle!<BR/><BR/>This Christmas I received a book on the subject: <I><B>Sister Bernadette's Barking Dog: The Quirky History and Lost Art of Diagramming Sentence</I></B> by Kitty Burns Florey . It was a fun little read in which the author discusses not only the value of diagramming, the history of diagramming and also lays out what some American authors thought of it. Gertude Stein seemed to love diagramming sentence -- though she seemed to abandon punctuation. <BR/><BR/>I would recommend the book if you would like to know more -- it's not scholarly, but appears well researched and has an engaging style.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com