tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post4257312653361282906..comments2024-03-28T16:11:36.465+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: crossing the street/roadlynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-2678465143361922322020-08-03T13:57:39.273+01:002020-08-03T13:57:39.273+01:00BrE (Scot, late 60s). Glad to see that I’m not the...BrE (Scot, late 60s). Glad to see that I’m not the only one re-visiting older posts. Just to say that I have no idea if I say cross the road or cross the street, and don’t find either usage strange or jarring. Likewise with playing in the street/road. To be fair, though, when I was a kid, there was so little traffic in our village that we did play in the bit where cars go. How else could you play football or rounders?Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9506196583974545792017-06-08T03:11:48.705+01:002017-06-08T03:11:48.705+01:00The history of the word road is interesting, and c...The history of the word <i>road</i> is interesting, and casts some light on its present-day use.<br /><br />The OED has three main headings<br /><br />†<b>I.</b>The action of riding, and related senses.<i> Obs</i>.<br /><br /><b>II.</b> A place where ships ride.<br /><br /><b> III.</b> A way, line, or path, and related senses.<br /><br />Sense I is by far the earliest, first found in a translation attributed to King Alfred the Great. Even if he didn't actually write it, it must date to his lifetime in the second half off the ninth century. Although this sense became obsolete, there's a strong tendency for later senses of <i>road</i> to suggest compatibility with horse riding — and subsequently the driving of vehicles.<br /><br />Senses under Heading II emerged in the fourteenth century.<br /><br />Heading III senses are even more recent, first recorded in 1580. The most important is:<br /><br /><b>4.a.</b> A path or way between different places, or leading to some place. Originally: a way wide enough to allow horses, travellers on foot, or horse-drawn vehicles or the like, to pass; (later) a wide way which motor vehicles, cyclists, etc., can use, typically having a specially prepared surface. Also with capital initial, as the second element in the name of such a way (cf. Rd. <i>n.</i>). Now the usual sense. <br /><br />By contrast <i>street</i> tends to be associated with walking — often with no overt destination.<br /><br />Other things being equal, to speak of children <i>playing is the street</i> can sound not very disturbing, which <i>playing in the road</i> rings alarm bells. It suggests that they may be playing in a place where cars go.<br /><br />I wouldn't wish to hear<br /><br /><i>*As I walked out on the roads of Laredo<br />*What's the word on the road?<br />*These kids are road-smart, and speak in road-slang.<br />*We must combat road crime, road drugs, and aggressive soliciting by road walkers.<br /></i><br /><br />When it comes to names, an urban thoroughfare which is unsuitable for traffic might be called various things, including <i>Street</i> (as well as <i>Close, Lane, Alley</i> etc — but not <i>Road</i>. (There is no corollary; a thoroughfare named <i>Street</i> may well be — and usually is — open to all manner of vehicles.)<br /><br />There's an interesting group of exceptions to this distinction. A handful of really old traffic-bearing place-to-place roads — originally made by the Romans — have the unexpected names <i>Watling Street, Ermine Street, Dere Street</i> and possibly others. These names are fossils from a time before the word <i>Road</i> was available in any senses other than those under OED Heading I.<br /><br />The use of <i>road</i> to mean simply 'way' extends in the North of England to expressions such as <i>any road, some road, no road</i> (= <i>anyway, some way, no way.</i>) I haven't heard the latter two, but <i>any road</i> was <b>extremely</b> common ('frequently used', I mean, not 'vulgar') when I was growing up in Nottingham.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-40287795734689332082017-06-06T15:37:43.053+01:002017-06-06T15:37:43.053+01:00These things change.
On Word of Mouth the other d...These things change.<br /><br />On <b>Word of Mouth</b> the other day, Michael Rosen stated that he had <b>avoided</b> in-crowd speech in his Oxford days — he didn't say whether it was an anti-establishment gesture or to distinguish himself from the public school-type speech around him. Dr Laura Wright seemed to be saying that some years later, certain terms had dropped out of the lingo. <b>The Eagle and Child</b> was no longer <b>The Bird and Baby</b>.<br /><br />Similarly, I'm pretty sure that in Michael's day we no longer spoke of <b>the Corn</b>. Or at least far fewer people said it than at the time that the rhyme was composed. The rhyme signals its extreme age by the Latin:<br />• the fact that it's used at all as the source of a joke<br />• the way the rhymes work only with a style of Latin pronunciation that was already going out of fashion a century ago.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-53492419798267394972017-06-06T14:33:22.597+01:002017-06-06T14:33:22.597+01:00I don't know how consistent the practice is, b...I don't know how consistent the practice is, but there's a strong tendency:<br /><br />• <b><i>The</i> Bloggsville road</b> is the thoroughfare (robust enough for motor traffic) that leads to Bloggsville — either from the place of speaking or by convention from some starting point agreed in the past. As such, it may be identified by a single number such as <b>A 99</b> or <b>B 1234</b>, or a name such as <b>Whotsit Street, Whotsit Avenue</b>etc or even <b>Whotsit Road</b>. Indeed, different stretches of <i>the Bloggsvlle road</i> may have different numbers and/or different names. (In speech, we say <i><b>the</b> A99</i> and <i><b>the</b> B 1234</i><br /><br />• <b>Bloggsville Road</b> is a thoroughfare <b>name</b>. Almost certainly it identifies a thoroughfare (of at least moderate width and extent) which lies within the boundaries, of a city/town/village, and which constitutes the start (or a very early stage) of the route to Bloggsville — or possible which <b>used to</b> mark this.<br /><br />For example, in my home city of Nottingham three roads diverge under the names <b>Derby Road, Ilkeston Road</b> and <b>Alfreton Road</b>. (Derby is a city relatively close to to Nottingham; Ilkeston and Alfreton are towns of comparable distance.) In each case, if you drive along the road and keep driving without turning off, you'll end up in the city/town of the corresponding name. However, each of the three thoroughfares changes its name long before the Nottingham city boundary.<br /><br />Those the places are relatively close to Nottingham. By contrast, Edinburgh, where I live now, has a <b>London Road</b> although London is about 400 miles away. London Road is only 1½ miles long. In the old days, no doubt, stage coaches would start the journey to London along this road, but it's not now an obvious route — certainly not the way I would drive.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-62047503176264818712017-06-04T21:31:50.929+01:002017-06-04T21:31:50.929+01:00There's also the Corn, known fully as Cornmark...There's also the Corn, known fully as Cornmarket Street.<br /><br />What is this that roareth thus?<br />Can it be a Motor Bus?<br />Yes, the smell and hideous hum<br />Indicat Motorem Bum!<br />Implet in the Corn and High<br />Terror me Motoris Bi:<br />Bo Motori clamitabo<br />Ne Motore caedar a Bo---<br />Dative be or Ablative<br />So thou only let us live:---<br />Whither shall thy victims flee?<br />Spare us, spare us, Motor Be!<br />Thus I sang; and still anigh<br />Came in hordes Motores Bi,<br />Et complebat omne forum<br />Copia Motorum Borum.<br />How shall wretches live like us<br />Cincti Bis Motoribus?<br />Domine, defende nos<br />Contra hos Motores Bos!nmatavkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15764541030602983935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-34306948080891154382015-06-23T18:47:55.360+01:002015-06-23T18:47:55.360+01:00I was born and raised in the SE US. I might say &#...I was born and raised in the SE US. I might say 'Get out of the road!' or 'His house is up the street.' In both cases I'd be referring to the thing that runs in front of my house. In my usage roads are in the country, but anywhere else I used road and street interchangeably.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9440457623816908412015-06-23T18:46:18.374+01:002015-06-23T18:46:18.374+01:00I was born and raised in the SE US. I might say &#...I was born and raised in the SE US. I might say 'Get out of the road!' or 'His house is up the street.' In both cases I'd be referring to the thing that runs in front of my house. In my usage roads are in the country, but anywhere else I used road and street interchangeably.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-62273088122608781102011-08-22T00:38:24.574+01:002011-08-22T00:38:24.574+01:00Fnarf, I've always been fond of that system, b...Fnarf, I've always been fond of that system, but must needs point out that it's hardly universal -- in LA, our place was on the intersection of two avenues! And yeah, that whole thing with the cross streets (and avenues that span the entirety of the city) doesn't really work in London, which is why you don't have A System, you have <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Knowledge#The_Knowledge" rel="nofollow">The Knowledge</a>! :)Azundrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17727092657508103785noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-50492273376371544122007-08-27T15:43:00.000+01:002007-08-27T15:43:00.000+01:00Just an aside...While I was out of town this weeke...Just an aside...<BR/><BR/>While I was out of town this weekend, I drove under a bridge that had its street name printed on it...<BR/><BR/>"Street Road"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-44330837216755855872007-08-25T10:56:00.000+01:002007-08-25T10:56:00.000+01:00Mention of "gate" in previous notes can be confusi...Mention of "gate" in previous notes can be confusing. To suggest that the word refers to a gate in a wall is often inaccurate, the possible association with the Scandinavian 'gata' can also link with the old use (in Scots) of 'gait' as for walk - hence Marketgait for Market Walk.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-82408008372155687812007-08-22T13:39:00.000+01:002007-08-22T13:39:00.000+01:00Hi Lynne,Actually, I thought your joke was funny!J...Hi Lynne,<BR/><BR/>Actually, I thought your joke was funny!<BR/><BR/>JanetJanethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16494516976868488211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-7237392397671408752007-08-22T02:33:00.000+01:002007-08-22T02:33:00.000+01:00Does BrE have an equivalent for "roadkill"?Does BrE have an equivalent for "roadkill"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-64350480050615459892007-08-21T00:34:00.000+01:002007-08-21T00:34:00.000+01:00fnarf wrote:> I mean, we know WHY Mickelegate is c...fnarf wrote:<BR/>> I mean, we know WHY Mickelegate is called that, but I'll bet you don't know the name of the man who named it.<BR/><BR/>Fnarf, perhaps his name was Mick? ;-) ;-) (Sorry, everybody - just couldn't resist it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-69548319992639887902007-08-20T19:16:00.000+01:002007-08-20T19:16:00.000+01:00One reason for the confusion about the suffix amon...One reason for the confusion about the suffix among Americans is that in their own country these things tend to have very fixed, formulaic meanings. For instance, here in Seattle, "Avenue" means north-south, "Street" means east-west. There are a handful of Courts, Places, and Roads and Ways, but almost all streets in the city correspond to this plan. <BR/><BR/>Occasionally an "Avenue" or a "Street" will curve around some natural obstruction like a hill or a lake. <BR/><BR/>This is so ingrained that even a popular shopping street in the University District, named "University Way", is universally referred to as "The Ave". It IS an "avenue" (generically speaking) but does NOT have "Avenue" in its name -- which still shocks some people who have been using the street for decades when you point it out to them.<BR/><BR/>There's also the whole business of discontinuous streets -- we have streets that disappear for miles due to bodies of water or hills, and then pick up again as if nothing had happened in the next neighborhood over. Some streets, like Galer, might have as many as ten segments, identified only by their directional (NW, N, NE). <BR/><BR/>Which points up another reason why Americans have trouble with the British system -- they've learned to simply ignore the suffix, and not notice or know it. I don't know whether Galer is a "Street" or an "Avenue", but I assume it's a Street because it's east-west.<BR/><BR/>I'm guessing the difference here (between learning lots and lots of unrelated names versus learning a SYSTEM) is down to the fact that parge chunks of Seattle and American cities like it were platted and named all at once, within recent memory, probably by a developer, whereas most British streets (and those in the older parts of the US, which are named similarly) have been around longer than anyone knows. I mean, we know WHY Mickelegate is called that, but I'll bet you don't know the name of the man who named it.Fnarfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15022243603033471232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-16703925676771485452007-08-19T16:21:00.000+01:002007-08-19T16:21:00.000+01:00Mollymooly said: '"Street" suggests to me that bui...Mollymooly said: '"Street" suggests to me that buildings are flush with the pavement/sidewalk/footpath, which is itself flush with the carriageway/road.'<BR/><BR/>This rings true to me, and I would expect to find more streets in inner-city or built-up areas and more roads elsewhere. To me 'playing in the street' means playing on the pavement, whereas 'playing in the road' would mean on the actual carriageway. <BR/><BR/>Isn't 'avenue' particularly used for tree-lined roads?Tillyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01971370513808010385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-86254168419993580012007-08-19T13:30:00.000+01:002007-08-19T13:30:00.000+01:00n AmE, city children playing games in that area ar...<I>n AmE, city children playing games in that area are said to be playing in the street [...] In BrE, they'd be playing in the road.</I><BR/><BR/>Not true. 'Playing in the street' is more common; five hits in the BNC to one for 'playing in the road'.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952564820382472228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-85087960889552919762007-08-19T13:29:00.000+01:002007-08-19T13:29:00.000+01:00Peter:Bishopsgate, Moorgate, Aldersgate have only ...Peter:<BR/><BR/>Bishopsgate, Moorgate, Aldersgate have only recently been referred to as such: until the early 1900s they were Bishopsgate-street, Moorgate-street (note 'street' in lower case).<BR/><BR/>By contrast Bradford's Kirkgate takes its ending from gata or gate meaning... street.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-25467091159069229712007-08-19T08:53:00.000+01:002007-08-19T08:53:00.000+01:00As a (Southwestern) American, there's nothing wron...As a (Southwestern) American, there's nothing wrong to my ear with "the side of the street." That's where people who have minor accidents pull over to in order to exchange insurance information.<BR/><BR/>But yes, to my ears anyway to cross the street is to encompass it. I find it hard even to imagine crossing the street in the "crossing the room" sense. (But also as a Southwestern American, I don't think of streets as places for people. They're for cars.)Jonathan Bogarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12642591944483957225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-50662802401502396702007-08-18T11:44:00.000+01:002007-08-18T11:44:00.000+01:00As aminquiry's point: also you can say "the left/r...As aminquiry's point: also you can say "the left/right side of the street", "the sunny side of the street", but not "the side of the street", even though you can say "the side of the road".<BR/><BR/>Also, the verb "to cross" seems to have to different senses. For instance, if you cross the room, you can stay inside it the whole time, but it cross the river on horseback you'll start and end outside of it.<BR/><BR/>I think Americans think of crossing the street in the second sense. Does "crossing the street" make sense in BrE the way "crossing the room" does?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-60349828145139736212007-08-18T01:09:00.000+01:002007-08-18T01:09:00.000+01:00Taking Dearieme's story a step further, I once hea...Taking Dearieme's story a step further, I once heard a guy say he hated Italy because the Italians killed Jesus.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-14127245960818148232007-08-17T11:07:00.000+01:002007-08-17T11:07:00.000+01:00We live on a Roman Road. Which brought the daught...We live on a Roman Road. Which brought the daughter sobbing home from school once - "Daddy, is it true that the people who built our road killed Jesus?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-50451893495454182492007-08-16T23:05:00.000+01:002007-08-16T23:05:00.000+01:00I once had some Americans stop me in Central Londo...I once had some Americans stop me in Central London and ask how to get to "Leicester". Fortunately I knew of the American habit of dropping the last element of street names and directed them to the square with the cinemas in rather than telling them to go to St Pancras and catch a fast train north ...Tabellionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03979613628927451767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-50914444428076074782007-08-16T21:25:00.000+01:002007-08-16T21:25:00.000+01:00In Dublin, many of the 1950s corporation housing e...In Dublin, many of the 1950s corporation housing estates have all their roads/streets names after some particular kind of thing: in Crumlin they're mainly ancient monasteries, in Drimnagh, they're all mountains. In these districts it's common enough to leave off the "road" when referring to any particular street - but only where it is designated "road", I think, as in these districts too there is a Mourne Drive and Mourne Crescent as well as Mourne Road.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-24027904324160150112007-08-16T21:06:00.000+01:002007-08-16T21:06:00.000+01:00bill and aminquery: re Road/Street/Avenue can be l...bill and aminquery: re Road/Street/Avenue can be long vs Circle/Place/etc usually short: that's also fairly true in Ireland and, I guess, Britain. <BR/><BR/>Nomenclature differences probably in part reflect differences in the layout and evolution of urban areas. The wide open spaces and rapidly increasing population of 20th-Century America allowed for the grid system of streets (or streets and avenues, with numbers); and also for a new development to lay out a large number of roads and ancillary services to be provided in advance of most buildings being constructed. All of which makes good planning sense, but in congested Britain I think things happen more piecemeal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-58298046869937405042007-08-16T20:55:00.000+01:002007-08-16T20:55:00.000+01:00Broadway would presumably be a famous exceptionAls...<I>Broadway would presumably be a famous exception</I><BR/>Also the Bowery.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com