tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post4356217635762005484..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: form and pro formalynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1029585252110760022021-04-23T17:11:16.107+01:002021-04-23T17:11:16.107+01:00OED etymology
pro forma = Latin pro forma as a for...OED etymology<br />pro forma = Latin pro forma as a formality<br />form = Latin forma, primarily shape, configuration<br /><br />Both have been used for hundreds of years.<br /><br />So different origins. One definition of form, and there are many, is a 'formulary document with blanks for the insertion of particulars'. Definitions of pro forma relate to formality, e.g., 'Designating a formal or standard document, esp. an invoice sent in advance of goods ordered'. So you could have a pro forma form or an informal form. You could call the latter a form.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-53024895669724271742021-02-07T19:25:03.612+00:002021-02-07T19:25:03.612+00:00In Russian проформа (proforma, one word) is used a...In Russian проформа (proforma, one word) is used as a synonym for "formality" (as in "no real importance"), usually in the form of для проформы (for proforma), literally "for for (!) the sake of form".Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15470921852918437057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-83172366473353046892017-05-30T15:29:15.285+01:002017-05-30T15:29:15.285+01:00It's as common as dust at my place of work whe...It's as common as dust at my place of work when referring to anything that needs to be filled in, say, like a form, so much so that it just isn't worth raising it even as a light-hearted observation. Drives me up the wall, but it's a losing battle. Put it down to the evolution of language and never mind that it's just plain wrong. Definitely comes from the same affliction that gave us "methodology" instead of simply "method".stereosmileshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05537305573940059999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-29071328510155192152017-02-24T10:12:50.875+00:002017-02-24T10:12:50.875+00:00Really necro post here but the use I have seen of ...Really necro post here but the use I have seen of proforma (written as one word) is for a sample form to be personalised by the end user for use as a formAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-21354495656545264592013-12-09T22:43:45.102+00:002013-12-09T22:43:45.102+00:00I always **hated** this usage in Britain! It seem...I always **hated** this usage in Britain! It seemed to be loved by administrative/secretarial types who thought that any Latin phrase, no matter how inappropriate, might make people take their directives more seriously. I'm very happy that it seems to be absent in the US.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-2209113414924243632010-03-29T11:06:29.847+01:002010-03-29T11:06:29.847+01:00This is a bit belated, but out of the places I hav...This is a bit belated, but out of the places I have lived (Manchester UK, Boston, NYC, Vermont, and Stockholm) I have only ever seen pro forma used as a noun in Vermont.<br /><br />What a quandary.cityiguanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01264029734350980056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-8180870963102845672010-03-29T11:05:22.363+01:002010-03-29T11:05:22.363+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.cityiguanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01264029734350980056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-84684226812844325402007-03-21T23:10:00.000+00:002007-03-21T23:10:00.000+00:00British-type toilet-roll has a strange, Tardis-lik...British-type toilet-roll has a strange, <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TARDIS" REL="nofollow">Tardis</A>-like effect in that it can actually cover much more space than it appears to occupy when looked at. I suppose this is because of its customary, erm, absorbent use when not employed to veil mysterious parts of <I>e.g.</I> visas, passports, bus-passes. In trying to guess Ms Guist's enigmatic first name, we must therefore think in terms of really long names like Morwenna, Maddalena and Margaret or maybe Maximiliana. The winner will get a free definition by me of <B>xmrzvix</B>, which is Blogger's latest coinage and the code I must enter to post this.Paul Danonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04816761952837296368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-86382763308161389632007-02-25T12:01:00.000+00:002007-02-25T12:01:00.000+00:00Here's an example from a London blogger:"We shared...Here's an example from a <A HREF="http://mylifelaidbare.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">London blogger</A>:<BR/><BR/>"We shared a chaste kiss goodbye when he dropped me off home and a quick check in the hallway mirror after he left revealed that I did not have food in my teeth, was not trailing toilet roll on my shoe, nor was my skirt tucked into my pants."<BR/><BR/>I think it'd be better in either dialect to put <I>a piece of</I> or <I>a bit of</I> before <I>toilet roll/paper</I> in that context...but that's not what I did on that day...lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-67873078937538678522007-02-24T20:57:00.000+00:002007-02-24T20:57:00.000+00:00I haven't heard toilet roll used in the UK to mean...I haven't heard toilet roll used in the UK to mean a piece of loo paper, rather than the whole roll - do you have a source for this?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-91939366859997116272007-02-14T10:45:00.000+00:002007-02-14T10:45:00.000+00:00Yes, I've heard that use in BrE too. Thanks, Inte...Yes, I've heard that use in BrE too. Thanks, Interface.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-10437263148148523182007-02-14T10:35:00.000+00:002007-02-14T10:35:00.000+00:00I worked in a correspondence (answering) office in...I worked in a correspondence (answering) office in an Australian Public Service office in the late '60s and early '70s. The term pro forma was quite common. But it was used to describe an answer by a form letter with minimal original additions, rather than a form.<BR/><BR/>As in:<BR/><BR/>Use pro forma no. 12b to reply to that letter.Interfacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10270650386605534373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-44859126224486495362007-02-12T15:32:00.000+00:002007-02-12T15:32:00.000+00:00I'm with David on this one - pro forma to me refer...I'm with David on this one - pro forma to me refers only to an invoice that requires paying before the goods or services are supplied. I've never come across it used in other contexts in the UK. Perhaps it's a Civil Service thing.<BR/><BR/>But on other matters in your post - both toilet roll and toilet paper are spoken of in the UK, in my experience, though neither happily; call me old-fashioned or a snob, but in my view only loo roll/paper, lav roll/paper, lavatory roll/paper or bog roll will do. Toilet tissue is the worst - like nails on a blackboard...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90197492606323920902007-02-11T22:51:00.000+00:002007-02-11T22:51:00.000+00:00I haven't got a lot of thoughts on the matter, exc...I haven't got a lot of thoughts on the matter, except that in both countries <I>prom</I> was originally short for <I>promenade</I>, but the meaning has floated pretty far from that now. Probably a topic for a separate post.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-58235699318900787442007-02-11T18:35:00.000+00:002007-02-11T18:35:00.000+00:00The relationship betwen formal and formal dance pr...The relationship betwen <I>formal</I> and <I>formal dance</I> prompts a question about proms, <I>The Proms</I>, promenading, and promenades. Any thoughts on this little family?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-68328188417949781242007-02-11T18:06:00.000+00:002007-02-11T18:06:00.000+00:00I'm sure that's how it came about, but a little kn...I'm sure that's how it came about, but a little knowledge of Latin is a dangerous thing, and so it doesn't <I>feel</I> like saying <I>formal</I> for <I>formal dance</I>, it feels more like a prepositional phrase. <BR/><BR/>But seeing as it's not the only way (and not even a favo(u)red way, if the opinions above are to be taken as representative) of saying/meaning <I>form</I> in BrE, I don't feel particularly motivated to start using <I>pro forma</I> in place of the perfectly usable <I>form</I>.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-54701747304948928132007-02-11T17:10:00.000+00:002007-02-11T17:10:00.000+00:00Does it help to think of it as a shortening of the...Does it help to think of it as a shortening of the phrase "pro forma document"? Kind of like a high school formal dance gets called a "formal."<BR/><BR/>Even if that's not how it came about, it might help you to use the phrase more easily.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-30372447091458641462007-02-10T21:56:00.000+00:002007-02-10T21:56:00.000+00:00I'm familiar with pro forma from invoicing clients...I'm familiar with <I>pro forma</I> from invoicing clients, as in giving someone a preliminary invoice, where final details will be worked out at a later date. My dentist's office manager gives me a pro forma every time she schedules an appointment. It's their way of softening the blow to my wallet. It's an estimate, on paper. <BR/><BR/>The use of <I>pro forma</I> instead of <I>form</I> is just sloppiness. It comes from the same lack of attention that prompts people to say Safeways instead of Safeway.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-91588382036747463392007-02-10T13:23:00.000+00:002007-02-10T13:23:00.000+00:0030 rather than 20? I won't argue with that.30 rather than 20? I won't argue with that.deariemehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06654632450454559188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-8121491463551112852007-02-10T13:05:00.000+00:002007-02-10T13:05:00.000+00:00Thanks for that, dearieme! The OED has an army us...Thanks for that, dearieme! The OED has an army use that dates back to the 1920s, but the quotation makes clear that the term was 'exotic' then, and then we have medical uses. (And no one should be too surprised when doctors use Latin where English would do.)<BR/><BR/>In 1977 there's a quotation from Wandsworth Borough Council, in which it doesn't look exotic--that is, it's not italici{s/z}ed, put in (BrE) inverted commas/(AmE) quotation marks or remarked upon. So the populari{s/z}ation of it may have begun by about 30 years ago.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-36369387405696821892007-02-10T12:26:00.000+00:002007-02-10T12:26:00.000+00:00When I say "introduction" I'm not referring to the...When I say "introduction" I'm not referring to the first sighting, as of some exotic insect. I mean when it first became a common pest.deariemehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06654632450454559188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-2313210927435630472007-02-10T12:21:00.000+00:002007-02-10T12:21:00.000+00:00I can help you here. For most of my life the Brit...I can help you here. For most of my life the British word was "form". "Pro Forma" seems to me to be an introduction of the last 20 or so years, by a generation where essentially no-one learnt any Latin and so persuaded itself (I guess) that Latin-sounding things are somehow posher. I have even heard it used, more than once, where the speaker presumably meant "pro rata". I think that accountants have a weakness for "pro forma" but what they suppose they mean by it I have no idea. In my own wee world I fight the same battle against "pro forma" that I wage against "Executive Summary".deariemehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06654632450454559188noreply@blogger.com