tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post4836558719821396458..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: badmintonlynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-12594440236079094612015-11-08T00:32:18.245+00:002015-11-08T00:32:18.245+00:00I think the reason Americans mispronounce Badminto...I think the reason Americans mispronounce Badminton is that they are introduced to it as a children's game, and children mispronounce things or can't pronounce them properly. Whilst British children are corrected by their elders, Americans are not. It's like children saying "Pasketti" for Spaghetti: it's cute when they're little children, but they get admonished as they get older to use the correct pronunciation. This does not happen with "Badmitten" because American adults don't know the correct pronunciation to begin with. It's not their game; it's just a child's backyard or picnic game played with toy sets at best. I've informed many people that Badminton is an Olympic sport, to which they giggle as if I just told them "tag" had been declared an Olympic sport. <br /><br />- an American educated in England.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-5839834514418660392013-02-04T23:54:16.947+00:002013-02-04T23:54:16.947+00:00I live in southern american and almost everyone sa...I live in southern american and almost everyone says 'bad-mitten'. My mother and I pronounce it 'badmington'. Actually more like 'babmingtin'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-18968699601544143572012-10-26T05:20:14.300+01:002012-10-26T05:20:14.300+01:00My husband's from Dorset where thus is common....My husband's from Dorset where thus is common. A strong accent pronounces 'over the shoulder boulder holder' as 'over the shoder boder hoder'. Hours of fun for all the family, right there :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-63132904627449619362012-08-04T20:20:31.057+01:002012-08-04T20:20:31.057+01:00I feel as if the 1st n in the "-nton" se...I feel as if the 1st n in the "-nton" sequence is lost in "Clinton" and "mountain" (AmE) as well, but we just notice it less because the first syllable is stressed, making the nasalization of the vowel more apparent. <br /><br />We're tricked into thinking the n is still there. For the -min- in badminton I guess the n-feeling is too weak for us to catch it. <br /><br />I tried this out on myself, and my tongue certainly doesn't hit alveolar for the n "Clin" or "moun" in those words if I go for a glottal-ish stop instead of t. (I speak east coast AmE.) So "bad mitten" for "badminton" doesn't sound so out of the ordinary for me. Just more noticeable.<br /><br />By the way, I DO pronounce the 1st n in badminton, because I keep the t a plain old t.<br /><br />( I lost the first version of this comment for some reason. If two entries come up for moderation, please keep this one! ;) )yeajungnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-32418060240888776802010-02-12T21:44:43.569+00:002010-02-12T21:44:43.569+00:00To my ears (and I speak this way), the final sylla...To my ears (and I speak this way), the final syllable of words like 'badminton', 'mountain', 'cotton', etc, isn't so much swallowed in AmE as made softer. It's not glottal or gutteral, but more like grunted. It's like the consonant equivalent of the schwa sound. But for place names that end in 'ton' (i.e. 'Town'), I never hear that phenomenon; the 't' is very clearly pronounced.<br /><br />My big gripe about AmE pronunciation are words like 'library' and 'February', which come out sounding like 'lye-berry' and 'Feb-you-erry'. I think it makes me crazy because I was born in February, so I take it quite personally ;)Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06968011115791180655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-15988664052474733862009-10-02T17:16:08.841+01:002009-10-02T17:16:08.841+01:00@CGP - I read that as "soldier" at first...@CGP - I read that as "soldier" at first, which made me wonder, as the "l" is sometimes dropped in British English (hence Kipling's "sojers").... which, of course, it isn't in "solder"!Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-51451618360319536752009-10-02T17:08:13.863+01:002009-10-02T17:08:13.863+01:00just stumbled upon your blog, i like it :)
i'...just stumbled upon your blog, i like it :)<br /><br />i'd never heard of the american pronunciation (-n) before this but it reminds me of a discussion that came up on an electronics forum.<br />the word Solder is pronounced in the UK as it is written, but in the US the 'l' is omitted, making it Sodder.<br />none of the brits were aware of the american pronunciation, and vice versa, to the bemusement of all.CGPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-64583224370965375042009-10-02T08:02:12.861+01:002009-10-02T08:02:12.861+01:00@Adjusting - people here in NZ also pronounce it B...@Adjusting - people here in NZ also pronounce it Badmington. Actually, they usually pronounce it more like Babmingtin...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08224271909126534162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-57529394904779883492009-10-02T01:25:28.010+01:002009-10-02T01:25:28.010+01:00@Rick S:
Finally, the initial "bad" cond...@Rick S:<br /><i>Finally, the initial "bad" conditions us to expect a separate or compound word, and hearing "minton" conflicts with that expectation, while "mitten" supports it.</i><br /><br />Interesting you should say that. For me, the "bad" in "bad Minton" is about twice as long as the "bad" in "badminton". So when I hear the initial "bad" of "badminton" (at least in my own accent) I already know that I'm not going to hear a phrase of the form "bad X".vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-31793010105071567422009-10-02T01:22:35.499+01:002009-10-02T01:22:35.499+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-36684618949562151062009-10-01T19:38:57.186+01:002009-10-01T19:38:57.186+01:00You can use the HTML character entities &lt; a...You can use the HTML character entities &lt; and &gt; to generate the < and > characters.<br /><br />I think there are several factors contributing to "badminton" getting analyzed as "bad mitten" by Americans. First, the unstressed /ton/ vowel gets reduced to a schwa, and then eliminated as the /t/ becomes unreleased (in informal speech) due to the /n/ being articulated at the same place. The unreleased /t/ then gets supported by co-articulating a glottal stop (cf. final "-mit", where the alveolar stop can disappear altogether). This gives us /bædmɪnʔn/.<br /><br />The first /n/ gets shortened by the glottal stop, so it's easily eliminated by the listener as meaningless articulatory transition noise. Also, /ɪ?n/ is a very common sequence (written, sittin', bitten, etc.) where /ɪn?n/ is not.<br /><br />Finally, the initial "bad" conditions us to expect a separate or compound word, and hearing "minton" conflicts with that expectation, while "mitten" supports it.Rick Snoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9528751305214092372009-10-01T14:15:22.958+01:002009-10-01T14:15:22.958+01:00I never knew Americans said it differently! Oddly...I never knew Americans said it differently! Oddly, when I saw the post title, my first thought was of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badminton_Horse_Trials" rel="nofollow">Horse Trials</a>, not the other game - does any other British person think that, or is it just me?<br /><br />I think we drop consonants less frequently than we used - my father says "Goff" instead of "Golf", but I am fairly sure that is obsolescent now. But place names are still fraught with pooh traps for heffalumps. Off the top of my head: Ardingly, Leominster, Cirencester, Shrewsbury...Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-21630924108615859872009-10-01T06:23:35.505+01:002009-10-01T06:23:35.505+01:00I live in the state of Wisconsin, US, up north-eas...I live in the state of Wisconsin, US, up north-east by the Great Lakes. We're mostly German, Dutch, and Norwegian here. I always pronounced the word like you described--I knew the N was there based upon spelling, but I would sort of put a glottal stop in there, so it was "badmin'n." I say some places in the UK like that too--like "Brigh'n."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-14179297380271608682009-10-01T04:11:36.282+01:002009-10-01T04:11:36.282+01:00In my native California accent, I pronounce it as ...In my native California accent, I pronounce it as John Cowan describes it. <br /><br />Hmmm....is there really an audible difference between an unreleased "t" like the one in "mitten" and an similarly unreleased "n," when both are followed by a glottal stop and a swallowed final syllable? I'm pretty sure I don't pronounce "mitten" and "badminton" alike, but I'm not sure that the difference is all that audible. As a small child I did mishear it as "badmitten."<br /><br />The final syllable is swallowed in a lot of two-syllable words and names: "kitten," "Clinton," and "Martin," but not "Washington" or "Lexington."Juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14376545097377854998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-20087990078963954582009-09-30T23:31:14.617+01:002009-09-30T23:31:14.617+01:00RWMG,
THANK YOU!
I seriously haven't laughed...RWMG,<br /><br />THANK YOU!<br /><br />I seriously haven't laughed this hard in a long time!<br /><br />That's standup that resonates with me for some reason. And I had no problem with the accent, surprisingly enough. But the Bad Mitten was very pronounced, yes.Jens Knudsen (Sili)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14078875730565068352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-27150042775343582652009-09-30T21:30:51.710+01:002009-09-30T21:30:51.710+01:00@lina:
I agree that a contraction of [nt] or [n?]...@lina:<br /><br />I agree that a contraction of [nt] or [n?] to [t] or [?] is phonologically plausible. The real question is why we don't see the same phenomenon in superficially similar cases. Why doesn't "Clinton" become "Clitton? Why doesn't "apparent" become "a parrot", or "apparently" become "a-parrot-ly"?<br /><br />We could specify that the contraction can only occur in an unstressed syllable. This explains why "Clinton" doesn't become "Clitton".<br /><br />We could specify that it can't occur in the final syllable, which rules out "apparent" -> "a parrot".<br /><br />The case of "apparently" can be explained by the strong analogical influence of the word "apparent". Same thing for "parenting", "patented", etc.<br /><br />We are still left with "inventory". Why doesn't this become "invettory"? I don't know.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90225116255974142472009-09-30T20:01:46.494+01:002009-09-30T20:01:46.494+01:00This post reminds me of one of my pet peeves- the ...This post reminds me of one of my pet peeves- the word caramel. In BrE we pronounce it as spelled, but in the US, I've generally heard it pronounced 'carmel', and then, inevitably, it starts to be spelled that way. I know I need to be tolerant, as a foreigner, but this one really sets my teeth on edge (or should I say, sticks them together?)!Valeriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05676986688599411947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9260646757610655922009-09-30T15:42:12.765+01:002009-09-30T15:42:12.765+01:00FWIW: In Wiki Answers, it says:
In England pronou...FWIW: In <a href="http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_pronounce_badminton" rel="nofollow">Wiki Answers</a>, it says: <br /><i>In England pronouciation of "Badminton" is: bad (as in not good), min (as in minute (time NOT size)), ton (as in the end of WashingTON) <br /><br />In America Bad, mitten (as in glove) <br /></i><br />So "bad mitten", which I (US, upstate NY) have always said, has some defenders.Roger Owen Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05298172138307632062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-79037213230706004982009-09-30T15:15:13.485+01:002009-09-30T15:15:13.485+01:00Since nobody else has mentioned it yet, I might as...Since nobody else has mentioned it yet, I might as well relay Tim Vine's cheesy gag:<br /><br />"I had a cat called Minton who swallowed a shuttlecock. I said 'Bad Minton!'""Ginger Yellowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06103410278129312943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-75436698178626460082009-09-30T15:09:47.042+01:002009-09-30T15:09:47.042+01:00Strange that British English (which usually misses...Strange that British English (which usually misses letters out more than American English) actually pronounces every single letter in "badminton."<br /><br />In fact I think some British people add an extra "g", pronouncing the word as "badmington."Andy JShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15819413906544791899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-48059048968951813072009-09-30T14:49:40.703+01:002009-09-30T14:49:40.703+01:00Yes, proper names can be a law unto themselves, wh...Yes, proper names can be a law unto themselves, which is why I was surprised to find the article you quoted making such a meal of Cavendish, Ogilvie and badminton. ("Cavendish" at least should suggest "Rutherford", which has the same stress).<br /><br />The point I was making about the three distinguished American rebels is that their names were formed as or borrowed from compounds, and stressed as such.Pickynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-30273264069302883522009-09-30T12:38:20.704+01:002009-09-30T12:38:20.704+01:00On the subject of oddly-pronounced place names, a ...On the subject of oddly-pronounced place names, a rather good one near my home town in Kent is spelled <i>Trottiscliffe</i>, and pronounced... Trosley.Johnny Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02332149992788801634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1391670906155525552009-09-30T12:18:34.468+01:002009-09-30T12:18:34.468+01:00@Amanda: I prefer not to respond to requests for ...@Amanda: I prefer not to respond to requests for new discussions in the comments section (see the Comments Policy), as that makes the blog less searchable. But also, I've avoided doing this one because it is such a well-discussed point. <a href="http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/aluminium.htm" rel="nofollow">World Wide Words</a> does it well.<br /><br />But to prove that it's pretty useless to have these discussions in the comments, I'll grant that I already discussed this in the comments for another post (on <i>rutabaga</i>--that word is easily searched), and that's why no one can find it! <br /><br />So, requests for new topics to email, please!lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-75429862186327701852009-09-30T12:14:49.142+01:002009-09-30T12:14:49.142+01:00Hi Lynne,
This is another great post. I've on...Hi Lynne,<br /><br />This is another great post. I've only found your blog recently, and I'm having great fun trawling through it.<br /><br />Could you possibly do a post explaining how Americans came to call the earth's most common metal, aluminium (as spelled and said by all other English speaking nations), as 'aluminum' without the second 'i' and pronounced: aloo-min-um?<br /><br />Thanks, AmandaAmandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08624496879254345234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-40656805380071130932009-09-30T12:12:16.191+01:002009-09-30T12:12:16.191+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Amandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08624496879254345234noreply@blogger.com