tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post5269437114840839852..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: making suggestionslynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-11603736716253511312020-08-23T11:29:58.784+01:002020-08-23T11:29:58.784+01:00BrE (Scot, 60+). I don’t remember a time when I di...BrE (Scot, 60+). I don’t remember a time when I didn’t watch American tv and fins. I have rarely had problems with understanding who was the good guy and who was bad, or who was supposed to be nasty and who was nice. As with suggestions/requests, it’s all in the tone of voice. But every so often, something stops me dead.<br /> British tv recently carried an advert for M&Ms sweets, which began with a wife/girlfriend saying “Babe, I could do with a snack”. To our British ears, both the wording and the tone sounded incredibly demanding and rude.<br /> In the film The Karate Kid, in reply to his mother, the lead character says “What?”, not requesting a repetion, but meaning something like “What have I done?”. This was at a point in the film where he was still a good guy, and from the context it wasn’t meant to be rude, yet to me, it sounded extremely abrupt and rude, to the point where it has stuck in my memory for over 30 years.<br /> Evidently, words and meanings are not the only things that are misunderstood when crossing the Atlantic. It sometimes happens with tone of voice as well.Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-21328388869863799562017-02-15T22:36:58.067+00:002017-02-15T22:36:58.067+00:00Mikal Ann mentions "You might wanna". I ...Mikal Ann mentions "You might wanna". I used to hear "You wanna?" a lot in US TV programs and movies when issuing commands disguised as requests, as in "You wanna gimme a hand?", "You wanna sweep the yard?" - the intention was never to find out someone's attitude to the task. (Nowadays I seldom watch TV or go to the cinema, so I have no idea whether the use continues.) It sounds SO false to me! A very different use from the strong suggestion of "You want to watch your step, young man!" (or else . . .).KeithDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10451059429340892054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-18222027449524802642014-04-20T18:38:45.697+01:002014-04-20T18:38:45.697+01:00Massachusetts age 25-
From what I've heard sp...Massachusetts age 25-<br /><br />From what I've heard spouses have a tendency to read bossiness and accusation into whatever their partner says, however politely or discreetly it be said.<br /><br />Other social relations such as military hierarchies can elevate suggestions into requests and requests into orders.<br /><br />I think the final test to whether an utterance is a suggestion or a request is how it is followed up.<br /><br />P.S. The counterbalance to direct requests appearing bossy is indirect requests appearing insincere.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02138260302522477243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-29869469180791770982013-07-01T07:36:44.652+01:002013-07-01T07:36:44.652+01:00I've been turning this over in my head, trying...I've been turning this over in my head, trying to figure out what would be the American version of what "Why don't you" means to British ears. To me, I picture a friendly old-time movie character inviting me over for dinner. <br />One thing I am sure of is that the past tense- "Why didn't you x?" is more of an accusation. <br />Hmm. For me, there would be three ways of making a suggestion- I would rarely use "Why don't you" in a situation where the outcome would affect me; pretty much only in an attempt to offer help.<br /><br />Say someone was trying to boil water, and having trouble with it (suspension of disbelief)<br />"Why don't you use the microwave?" would be a good-faith suggestion. It wouldn't mean I thought they were stupid for not having thought of it already, just that I thought it might help them along.<br />"Why don't you /just/ use the microwave?" Would suggest they had missed something obvious.<br />And "Just use the microwave." would be an impatient/rude version of the suggestion, not at all helpful or in good faith.<br />Again, it seems that all of the above would be perceived quite differently by BrE speakers.<br />Good to know :) Chloehttp://adeleblaircassiedanser.tumblr.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-91057620159366147222013-01-02T17:05:46.662+00:002013-01-02T17:05:46.662+00:00ellarien, my mother also says "would you like...ellarien, my mother also says "would you like to", when she means "please would you", all the time, and it has irritated me no end all my life. It seems very passive-aggressive, as she is not actually interested in my enjoyment of the requested action, only whether I am willing to comply. When I was younger and more belligerent, I would respond "No, I wouldn't like to do that at all".<br />It was drummed in to me at school not to say 'Can I?' or 'Can you?' unless specifically asking about one's ability. It should always be 'may I?' or 'Would you?'. I have distinct memories of standing uncomfortably cross-legged because I had asked my teacher 'Can I go to the bathroom?' instead of 'May I go' and got the abrupt answer back 'I'm sure you are quite capable. Stand there for a while and we shall see'! She would eventually relent, after a suitable period of embarrassment had expired (but before any 'accidents' thank goodness!). It still grates on me to hear 'Can I have' and the like.Jaxcatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-55421989585710731722011-09-11T08:11:33.429+01:002011-09-11T08:11:33.429+01:00I would likely find "why don't you" ...I would likely find "why don't you" aggrieving is that is sounds like a demand that I justify my non-compliance. almost a "You'd better have a damned good reason why not."<br /><br />PerryPeregrinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-49245612689303711552011-07-16T11:36:00.177+01:002011-07-16T11:36:00.177+01:00With that condition, it's an invitation. Witho...<i>With that condition, it's an invitation. Without the condition, it's a suggestion.</i><br /><br />As it stands, this is just re-phrasing the problem. I suppose what I was trying to say is something like this:<br /><br />1 If the <b>speaker</b> believes that all the necessary conditions are met, then the speech act is <b>intended</b> as a suggestion/request/invitation etc.<br /><br />2. If the <b>hearer</b> believes that all the necessary conditions are met, then the speech act is <b>interpreted</b> as a suggestion/request/invitation etc.<br /><br />3. The hearer’s belief is rarely deduced from the speaker’s form of words. You think you know whether <br /><i>'Why don't we try that new restaurant?'</i> is a suggestion or an invitation because you think you understand the relationship between you and the speaker.<br /><br />Even when there's a conflict, understanding the relationship prevails over linguistic signal. Lynne's BH feels a momentary pang when she says <i>'Why don't you...?'</i> once too often. But he doesn't seriously think that she's trying to boss him. How do we know? Well, he's still BH, and Lynne feels comfortable in writing about the mini conflictette.<br /><br />If we want to know which <b>language forms</b> signal suggestion/request/invitaion etc irrespective of the interpersonal dynamics, we'd better confine our observation to what <b>strangers</b> say to each other.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-12196791240593625652011-07-14T19:55:36.784+01:002011-07-14T19:55:36.784+01:00Lynne
"Why don't we try that new restaur...Lynne<br /><br /><i>"Why don't we try that new restaurant?" could be both an invitation and a suggestion for where to eat.</i><br /><br />OK, so let's add a condition<br /><br /><b>S and H know that S can make it possible for H to perform the action proposed</b><br /><br />With that condition, it's an invitation. Without the condition, it's a suggestion.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-61227149495342947082011-07-14T13:18:20.307+01:002011-07-14T13:18:20.307+01:00Lots of interesting discussion here...just droppin...Lots of interesting discussion here...just dropping in quickly to echo what David Crosbie & others have been pointing out--not everything that tries to get somebody to do something is a suggestion. A lot of the things that people are raising here are requests--which would be another blog post! We're also seeing some invitations here. I take DC's point that IF's definition doesn't quite make the distinction clear between invitations and suggestions--though in real life the distinction isn't always clear either. E.g. "Why don't we try that new restaurant?" could be both an invitation and a suggestion for where to eat.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-8642169498380366102011-07-14T10:41:12.909+01:002011-07-14T10:41:12.909+01:00girl on the train
Pass the wine, would you is a c...girl on the train<br /><br /><i>Pass the wine, would you</i> is a common British form of <b>request</b>. <br /><br />I don't see how interrogative <i>would</i> it could ever be a suggestion. <br /><br /><i>Would i?, would he?</i> etc are tags used <br />— in genuine questions (<i>Then I wouldn't know about it, would I?</i><br />— in pointed rhetorical question <i>They wouldn't admit it, would they?</i><br />— to imply a threat <i>Oh he would, would he!</i><br /><br />Combined with <i>you</i>, there's the additional possibility of <b>polite command</b>.<br /><br />Even by the test of Flöck's conditions set out in the OP <i>'Pass the wine, would you'</i> fails to satisfy:<br /><br /><b><i>- S believes that the suggestion is in the interest of H.</i></b><br /><br />Your boyfriend (S) believes that passing the wine (the putative suggestion) is in <b><i>his</i></b> interest (the interest of S) rather than <b><i>your</i></b> interest (the interest of H).<br /><br />For much of British culture, tagging <i>would you</i> onto an order is <b>sufficient</b> to mitigate it into a request in contexts where only minimal politeness is necessary. We don't take offence because <br />— we know the convention<br />— we hear in the intonation that the speaker is not being rudeDavid Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-2017791070763860542011-07-14T10:12:30.447+01:002011-07-14T10:12:30.447+01:00Solo
but I might say to a friend "I don'...Solo<br /><br /><i>but I might say to a friend "I don't suppose you'd fancy going to the cinema tomorrow night?" or something like that, with no expectation of an affirmative answer and no loss of face if they say no.</i><br /><br />Hm. Yes, I have to give you that. But I have a strong feeling that this is only possible because the speaker is involved. By contrast consider: <i>"I don't suppose you'd fancy going to the cinema to check what's on tomorrow night?" </i><br /><br />I suggest the problem is that the last two of Flöck's conditions are too disparate to work cleanly together.<br /><br /><i>A speech act is understood as a suggestion when the following conditions apply: <br />- The speaker (S) wants the hearer (H) to consider the action proposed.<br />- S and H know that H is not obliged to carry out the action proposed by S.<br /><b>- S believes that the suggestion is in the interest of H.<br />- S may or may not include herself in the proposed action</b> </i><br /><br />The problem as I see it is that if S does include themself (another device to avoid 'himself or herself') in the proposed action, it muddies the test that he/she believes that the action is in H's interest. For the speech act to be a suggestion, surely there must be a condition that <br /><br />— S believes that the interests of H <b>take precedence</b> over any interest or desire of S to be included in the proposed actionDavid Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-54376809992384377462011-07-14T08:59:08.176+01:002011-07-14T08:59:08.176+01:00How about the British 'would you' ("w...How about the British 'would you' ("wouldjou")?<br />My British boyfriend uses this at the end of phrases all the time, apparently as a polite request, but to my Canadian ears it's a rude command. I would only use it when very annoyed with someone.<br /><br />His use: "Pass the wine, would you?"<br /><br />My use: (we're running late) Hurry up, would you?!Kasiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13495282133205303691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-22335461451126923412011-07-13T00:59:47.772+01:002011-07-13T00:59:47.772+01:00Mr. Crosbie
I agree my example is often a polite ...Mr. Crosbie<br /><br />I agree my example is often a polite request but I might say to a friend "I don't suppose you'd fancy going to the cinema tomorrow night?" or something like that, with no expectation of an affirmative answer and no loss of face if they say no.<br /><br />I find most of these hesitancy type features are only annoying if you really can't say no. I wouldn't expect an employer to hedge requests or directives like in the examples above, but when I was on an unpaid internship last yearthey were very conscious of the fact I was working for free and therefore suggested or asked I do things, rather than ordering.Solohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09740368155249391858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-73170353918093406402011-07-12T17:46:16.650+01:002011-07-12T17:46:16.650+01:00I think (and the comments here seem to agree) that...I think (and the comments here seem to agree) that any form of suggestion is perceived as an outright request in the UK, and any modification of it ('why don't you' 'have you tried') just makes it more annoying (my mother used to say 'would you like to...'). As someone already said, actual suggestions are so subtly phrased as to be invisible to any search.townmousehttp://cityexile.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-72732243724448432502011-07-12T10:40:11.644+01:002011-07-12T10:40:11.644+01:00For non-Brits, and for Brits who are too young or ...For non-Brits, and for Brits who are too young or (like me) too old for it to be part of their childhood, here's a clip of <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcGCGS2Ow30&feature=related" rel="nofollow">Why don't you?</a>. Strange.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-67681273436219170502011-07-12T01:30:17.771+01:002011-07-12T01:30:17.771+01:00Solo
"I don't suppose you'd/ you cou...Solo<br /><br /><i>"I don't suppose you'd/ you could/ you'd mind..."</i><br /><br />For me, that isn't a suggestion at all — just a very polite request.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9544662659361396392011-07-12T00:05:54.208+01:002011-07-12T00:05:54.208+01:00"I don't suppose you'd/ you could/ yo..."I don't suppose you'd/ you could/ you'd mind..."<br /><br />is probably my most indirect British way of making an explicit suggestion (as opposed to an entirely oblique one.)<br /><br />Naming a television programme 'Bugger Off and Stop Watching' [paraphrasing] seems highly counterproductive. I suppose the ratings war was yet to begin in earnest, what with there being less than three channels. Or fewer.Solohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09740368155249391858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-81204622746612883792011-07-11T14:26:37.877+01:002011-07-11T14:26:37.877+01:00Mark Leavit
In Britain, if not in America, Do me ...Mark Leavit<br /><br />In Britain, if not in America, <i>Do me a favour</i> tends to be a relatively mild way of saying 'Stop annoying me' or 'Don't do what you were going to do, because it will annoy me'.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-66156078163749413692011-07-11T13:40:02.476+01:002011-07-11T13:40:02.476+01:00There's also a cultural issue. If you're ...There's also a cultural issue. If you're British and my sort of age, then 'Why Don't You?' automatically reminds you of the aggressively bossy TV programme title 'Why Don't You Just Switch Off Your Television Set and Go Out and Do Something Less Boring Instead?' which was usually abbreviated to 'Why don't you?'Roshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02669423378438380019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-37050055135811784122011-07-08T17:12:22.637+01:002011-07-08T17:12:22.637+01:00I can think of examples where "Why don't ...I can think of examples where "Why don't you ... ?" carries no more bossiness than what any suggestion might carry. <br /><br />"Why don't you think it over and let me know what you decide?"Øhttp://voidplay.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-46374650629502756102011-07-08T16:01:36.395+01:002011-07-08T16:01:36.395+01:00@Marc Leavitt:
As an American (New Jersey), whenev...@Marc Leavitt:<br /><i>As an American (New Jersey), whenever I was in a supervisory position, I usually prefaced my requests with, "(Name), do me a favor and..."</i><br /><br />I would be SO annoyed if my boss used that formula! You're not asking a favour, you're delegating work and issuing assignments. (Unless the request really was for a personal favour, in which case I take it all back.)<br /><br />I agree that "why don't you..." sounds very bossy indeed. It carries a strong implication of "I know what you should be doing, and it's not what you are doing now".<br /><br />Context is everything, though. If both speaker and listener are in a groping, puzzle-solving frame of mind, then "why don't you" comes across as a more tentative suggestion, more like "why not". I'm picturing two people playing a video game: "That doesn't work either... hm, why don't you try the yellow key in the blue door?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-49372069104323532302011-07-08T04:34:25.702+01:002011-07-08T04:34:25.702+01:00If I say why don't you it might mean that I...If I say <i>why don't you</i> it might mean that I'm puzzled by your behavior, and by implication that I think you are doing something the wrong way or not the best way. And it might mean that I want to hear reasons for your action or inaction. Yet there are also times when neither of the above is true, when it really is a way of suggesting a course of action, nothing more. <br /><br /><i>Why don't you think it over and let me know what you decide?</i> <br /><br />I can't see any offense or bossiness in that, although I se that someone who is not used to this idiom might be taken aback, thinking something like "What makes you think I'm not planning to do that?"<br /><br />(On the other hand, any suggestion of a course of action for another person, no matter how expressed, has the potential to come across as bossy, depending on personalities and relationships. Also depending on content: if I say "Why don't you go screw yourself?" the offense does not lie in either my inquisitivenes or my criticism of the fact that you are not screwing yourself yet.)Øhttp://voidplay.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-50321938997093326322011-07-07T23:46:11.362+01:002011-07-07T23:46:11.362+01:00"Why don't you...?" reminds me of a ..."Why don't you...?" reminds me of a British children's television programme from some years ago now that used to be shown during the school holidays. Its full title was something like "Why don't you turn off the television and go and do something less boring?" and the programme was full of "less boring" suggestions for kids.<br /><br />I think I tend to say "Couldn't you.." when making a suggestion, but goodness knows what I actually say!Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-4620478126202801132011-07-07T23:39:45.787+01:002011-07-07T23:39:45.787+01:00I do wonder sometimes about these studies, particu...I do wonder sometimes about these studies, particularly when they don't take into account variations across a culture. I'm from the American South and deal with people from both US/UK fairly frequently. Of course this is anecdotal, but I often find that people from the northern US strike me as being more direct/"bossy" than either the British or those from non-Northern parts of the US. It seems to me that US Northerners are especially direct, but this isn't something shared by all Americans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-36956664368371187542011-07-07T20:21:30.927+01:002011-07-07T20:21:30.927+01:00@Andy JS:
I'm guessing John Cowan is American ...@Andy JS:<br /><i>I'm guessing John Cowan is American because, with respect, he's wrong about "Why don't you" not seeming bossy.</i><br /><br />I'm guessing that, regardless of your nationality, you didn't read his comment very carefully. He is explaining why it <b>could</b> seem bossy!vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.com