tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post6184986201821863374..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: tokenslynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-68231248603546656832021-06-19T23:03:32.365+01:002021-06-19T23:03:32.365+01:00There is a stock market term, I think obsolete but...There is a stock market term, I think obsolete but haven't checked, about clipping coupons. I associate it with wealthy investors (stereotypically, wealthy widows) living on dividends or something. hschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-16054234697913279782019-05-19T12:18:31.831+01:002019-05-19T12:18:31.831+01:00BrE, Scot, mid 60s. Many thanks to Solo for sparki...BrE, Scot, mid 60s. Many thanks to Solo for sparking off a “lightbulb moment”. In AmE literature, I have frequently come across references to housewives clipping coupons. I always linked “clipping” to the person on a train (no longer a conductor) who “clipped” my ticket, to prove that he had seen it. This was done with a hand-held device that either punched a hole in the ticket, or cut a notch out of its side.<br /><br />I had no idea why American housewife’s would sit punching holes in coupons. For some strange reason, I assumed it had something to do with the stock market. I just never made the connection between “clipping” and “cutting out”.Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-64275810619061164692016-04-04T23:56:29.283+01:002016-04-04T23:56:29.283+01:00biochemist writes of coupons during the war of 193...biochemist writes of <i>coupons</i> during the war of 1939-45. But rationing and the associated coupons permitted on into the '50s. I was born in 1944 but by the time I was old enough to run errands I was given coupons along with the money to pay for the food shopping.<br /><br />We pronounced them KOO-ponz (ˈkuːpɒnz). Popular country songs of the '30s in America sang of KYOO-ponz.<br /><br />I'm surprised that there's any suggestion that the word <i>token</i> is at all obsolescent. Waitrose (up-market UK supermarket) issues <i>tokens</i> in the form of little plastic discs that you put into one of three boxes representing three currently supported charities. At the end of the month (or similar period) Waitrose shares out a donation proportionately to the tokens allotted by customers. And my favourite mail order record store (Red Lick) invites us to buy <i>gift tokens</i>, which I believe to be physically identical to what other concerns call <i>gift vouchers</i>.<br /><br />Another meaning of <i>token</i> is rife in folk song. For example<br /><br /><i>Come change your ring with me dear girl, come change your ring with me<br />That it might be a token of true love while I am on the sea</i><br /><br />In numerous songs the ring (or whatever) is cut in two before the lovers' paring, each holding a half. <br /><br /><i>'And here is the ring that between us was broken<br />In the midst of the battle to remind me of you'<br />And when she saw the token she flew into my arms, saying<br />'You're welcome dearest Willie from the plains of Waterloo'</i><br /><br />This genre of songs is known as <i>broken token ballads</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-42616936148323334412016-04-04T03:13:59.351+01:002016-04-04T03:13:59.351+01:00When at school in 1970s Britain we had school dinn...When at school in 1970s Britain we had school dinners (the lunchtime meal) which were paid for with plastic "dinner tokens", these paid for by putting some coins in a machine which dispensed the tokens. The idea I believe at the time was that those kids who got free school meals (tokens provided by the local council) looked the same as everyone else when handing the token to a dinner lady. It didn't work of course as kids new perfectly well who was poor, but it maintained the illusion for adults who believed in it.Timtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-20684369225681319492011-04-17T18:22:10.833+01:002011-04-17T18:22:10.833+01:00As an American network engineering major it's ...As an American network engineering major it's very interesting to hear the origin of the token in token ring networks (non-subway/light rail train journeys are exceedingly rare in the US. Most people who can't drive for one reason or another use greyhound (genericised brand name, but by far the biggest) buses (BrE coaches) between cities).<br /><br />To me tokens are always small discs of metal if used in the literal sense. Up until 2006 they were still used for the Boston subway system. <br />They were once used for New Hampshire's tolls, (you would by a roll at a rest stop for ~2/3 of the regular price) But they stopped in the mid '90s. My dad found out they stopped using them three years before the trip at a toll booth while he still had half a roll, much to his dismay.<br /><br />Just about the only places that still uses them as far as I know are amusement arcades. Generally tickets you buy yourself, vouchers are given to you by a company or government, and gift certificates/cards you are given by other people.Schwalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12425773164761448727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-14408652126060349282010-06-24T13:04:18.520+01:002010-06-24T13:04:18.520+01:00The handshakes that (historically and theroeticall...The handshakes that (historically and theroetically) identify Freemasons are indeed termed 'tokens' within the terminology and ritual of the United grand lodge of England, using token in the senes of ' a proof of authenticity or authority'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90241809816212620622010-06-21T22:55:48.160+01:002010-06-21T22:55:48.160+01:00PW - one of Britain's lasting legacies in Indi...PW - one of Britain's lasting legacies in India is the bureaucracy - among which is the requirement for a chitty (or chit), a correctly filled-in form, before any work can be carried out. This is a Hindi word, absorbed into English in the absence of an equivalent in the 19th C or earlier.<br />My concise Oxford dictionary also tells me that the 'chitty system' was a means of putting off payment for drinks (chota peg at the club, old man?) - in fact, what we would now call setting up a tab at the bar. So a 'chitty' could have been used where we now use voucher or (book) token.biochemistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-7721512146171726252010-06-21T18:49:43.141+01:002010-06-21T18:49:43.141+01:00Re the mason's dodgy handshakes (sorry if we&#...Re the mason's dodgy handshakes (sorry if we're straying too far off topic) I think it's the masons who are considered dodgy (i.e. a bit shady) and by extension their handshakes. There's a word for that (synecdoche?) but I can't quite remember it.townmousehttp://cityexile.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-24896182805115884532010-06-21T14:37:26.350+01:002010-06-21T14:37:26.350+01:00@Biochemist on 16 June at 18:21 - You said chit or...@Biochemist on 16 June at 18:21 - You said chit or chitty could have been used, but might have sounded too military or colonial. Are you meaning colonial in the sense of having been used at the time of the British colonies, or in the sense of being used in the colonies? As an AmE speaker, chit is a word I recognize, but never use. But I know there are other colonies.<br /><br />@Anonymous on 18 June at 11:16. You mention the Masons' dodgy handshakes. Again, a word I recognize, but don't use. The meaning I thought I understood (unreliable, though maybe also not quite right or ethical) doesn't seem to fit. So what does the word mean?PWnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-56000024208587903132010-06-21T12:32:42.810+01:002010-06-21T12:32:42.810+01:00"Also, and I know this is off-topic, but do t..."Also, and I know this is off-topic, but do they really deliver milk door-to-door in Britain? To this New Yorker, it sounds so quaint!"<br /><br />Yes, and to me, the phrase 'this New Yorker', used by the speaker of himself or herself, sounds rather quaint, and (for an unaccountable reason) slightly aggressive; I'm sure it wasn't meant that way.<br /><br />I can't conceive of using the phrase 'this Englishman' of myself. I don't think the construction exists in BrE.Graham Ashernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-50047044581098170292010-06-19T19:06:18.897+01:002010-06-19T19:06:18.897+01:00A BrE speaker would have had a railway siding with...A BrE speaker would have had a <b>railway</b> siding with a <b>guard's van</b>.Gary McQueenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13492203920944257522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-17881861311788608832010-06-19T18:38:34.659+01:002010-06-19T18:38:34.659+01:00There's a railroad siding outside my office. ...There's a railroad siding outside my office. The token used on that siding is a caboose. It's certainly a large piece of metal. 8-)<br /><br />Since cabooses are no longer used on most trains*, I suppose it makes sense to get some use out of them.<br /><br />* Replaced by an "End of Train Device" -- EOT or ETD.<br /><br />(All of the above AmE.)Doug Sundsethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848091504066560951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-31123444993486532812010-06-18T11:16:23.814+01:002010-06-18T11:16:23.814+01:00In the [London] Times yesterday, an interview with...In the [London] Times yesterday, an interview with the new Secretary of the [UK] Masons. Asked about dodgy handshakes etc, he referred to them as tokens [of membership?]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-66232412517779235042010-06-17T12:59:27.401+01:002010-06-17T12:59:27.401+01:00Upon re-reading my gibberish... I don't know w...Upon re-reading my gibberish... I don't know why I said Underground tickets were printed with the destination. That sentence was rewritten so many times it went flooey.<br /><br />The ticket was printed with the *issuing* station and the amount paid. You'd hand it in to the collector when reaching your destination.<br /><br />Coin tokens are common in places like game arcades for several reasons. First and foremost, the manager gets your money up front. If you buy, say, £5 of tokens and then don't use them all up for any reason, that's extra profit. (And if you save one as a souvenir, it doubles as advertising.) Also, it means the game machines aren't worth breaking into. The only cash is at central points where it can be better guarded. It can also be easier to adjust the price paid per game, since it's only adjusting a number of tokens instead of messing with different coin sizes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-84227035589499502672010-06-17T12:28:11.009+01:002010-06-17T12:28:11.009+01:00David Young mentioned a use of "token" i...David Young mentioned a use of "token" in amusement machines on Brighton pier. Until relatively recently fruit machines and similar gaming machines in public places (pubs, amusement arcades, piers, and so on) could only pay out in tokens. Only machines in private members' clubs could pay out cash.<br /><br />Since the amount of the payout was severely restricted most people would immediately put their tokens back in the machine and lose them in time, but it was usually possible to change them for goods, but not cash (although that was often quietly ignored).arniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13068830078875310006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-21294960651255906662010-06-17T10:46:12.475+01:002010-06-17T10:46:12.475+01:00Got it thanks, Solo - generation gap! How the (UK)...Got it thanks, Solo - generation gap! How the (UK) world has changed.biochemistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-21460059595734176842010-06-17T04:02:31.009+01:002010-06-17T04:02:31.009+01:00Biochemist- Lynne and I were talking about the con...Biochemist- Lynne and I were talking about the contemporary sense of milk tokens which is a benefit issued to people with babies. I'm not sure if they are in actual token form, I suspect they are like a food stamp and can be exchanged for milk for the child, though many places will also allow them to be spent on other groceries too, which is why they are very popular (as in well-liked) amongst the needy mothers of Britain.<br /><br />Thinking about it, the system probably began with the local authority purchasing the old style milk tokens from a dairy and issuing them to needy parents and the expression carried on when the mode of payment changed.<br /><br />Lynneguist- they may have been given out to all and sundry when I was a bairn, but no doubt Thatcher did away with that, and of course there was no such thing as investment capital or free books when I was a nipper. It was staright down the mines or off to Borstal if I remember correctly...Solohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09740368155249391858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-29941030061295957602010-06-17T00:36:18.049+01:002010-06-17T00:36:18.049+01:00Not a past tense, as far as I can tell. From OED,...Not a past tense, as far as I can tell. From OED, for the noun:<br /><br />[OE. tácen, tácn; = OFris. têken, têkn, teiken (WFris. teiken, {dag}teeckne), OS. têcan (MLG., MDu., LG. têken, Du. teeken), OHG. zeihhan (MHG., Ger. zeichen), ON. teikn (tákn from OE.), Sw. tecken, Da., Norw. tegn, all neuter:{em}OTeut. *taik-nom (in Goth. taikns fem.:{em}*taiknis), cognate with *taik-jan, OE. t{aeacu}cean to show, TEACH.] <br /><br />For the verb, note that there's an extra 'n'--so the 'n' at the end of 'token' is not the same as a verb-suffix 'n':<br /><br />[OE. tácnian (also {asg}e-) = MLG. têkenen, OHG. zeihhanôn (Ger. zeichnen):{em}OTeut. *taiknôjan, f. *taiknom, TOKEN n.]lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-75118985828280701972010-06-17T00:26:26.476+01:002010-06-17T00:26:26.476+01:00Lynneguist - milk tokens in the UK were issued by ...Lynneguist - milk tokens in the UK were issued by the Co-op dairy and possibly other local dairies - they were pre-paid, i.e. bought by the householder as a 'pay-as-you-go' system rather than having the milkman call at the end of the week, with the risk of missing the payment. What I mean is, they may have been very useful for people on a careful budget, but they were not (to my knowledge) a welfare benefit. <br />The comments by Rick S rather went over my head, but I think I agree that a token is intended as a substitute (token male, token of my esteem, book token) and thus this computing/railway use of 'token' is a symbol of permission. <br />By the way, is the word a past tense of a now-vanished verb? (cf. taken)biochemistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-55340006150324107482010-06-17T00:09:39.908+01:002010-06-17T00:09:39.908+01:00@Boris Zakharin et al.:
I don't think it's...@Boris Zakharin et al.:<br />I don't think it's the small size that qualifies something as a "token"--the tokens in token rings are, after all, not even physical entities. Rather, what unifies most of the definitions is that a token is a symbol with a conventionalized meaning. In a token network, it represents the right to transmit (and incidentally, you DO have to give it up after you use it, according to the protocol). In the context of parsing text, the token is a syntactic unit that represents a minimal semantic unit for the purpose of semantic analysis. A token person of some class is meant to represent sensitivity to the values of that class (although if that sensitivity isn't genuine the effect is annoyingly patronizing). Etc.<br /><br />Of course, there are many kinds of conventional symbols that we don't usually call tokens, such as money, traffic signs, etc. But that's simply linguistic habit; I don't think most people would be stupefied if I were to say that a STOP sign betokens a duty to halt your vehicle.RickSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-40367316302446773932010-06-16T21:31:11.004+01:002010-06-16T21:31:11.004+01:00@solo: I think milk tokens must just be for famili...@solo: I think milk tokens must just be for families with lesser financial means--I've never been offered any. But I do get a child benefit (as do all parents in the country--£20 a week for one child), plus the £250 you get to invest for your child when they're born, and the free books...not to mention the free healthcare, of course. Not as cushy as raising a child in France, but surprising to an American all the same...lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-3478993349514643912010-06-16T18:21:39.866+01:002010-06-16T18:21:39.866+01:00I agree that 'token' refers to a coin-shap...I agree that 'token' refers to a coin-shaped item with a specific monetary value, whether for milk or in the company shop (19th century). When Book Tokens were introduced in the UK, the word 'coupon' was still remembered from the 1939-45 war - each person had a book of coupons that permitted them to purchase clothing or food - they had no monetary value themselves. So Record Tokens and Department Store Tokens were analogous to Book Tokens - all now replaced by pre-paid cards with a magnetic strip (although sneakily some of them have an expiry date if not used!). We could have used the word 'chit' or 'chitty' I suppose, but that might have sounded too military or colonial. <br />Vouchers always have the connotation of 'money-off' to me, rather than representing the full purchase price.biochemistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-28393363071058229982010-06-16T18:16:18.727+01:002010-06-16T18:16:18.727+01:00The card ticket with a magnetic strip is still ver...The card ticket with a magnetic strip is still very much in use for the occasional traveller in London. I can't remember a time before then, but I do remmeber the little oblong carboard tickets being issued by the bus conductor.<br /><br />I've only ever heard of milk tokens (UK)as a benefit for mothers, so the expression has been in common use in that sense since at least the mid-eighties. I'm not sure if it's just for poor families, Lynneguist you'd be more likely to know than me. Milkmen have only ever taken cash as far back as I can remember. I've never seen or heard of bus tokens either.<br /><br />As a pre-paid slip of paper which you can exchange for goods in a shop, I'd happily use 'token' or 'voucher', except in the case of 'book' which is collecated with 'token'.<br /><br />I'd also collect tokens off a cereal box etc, though I'd expect it to be called a 'coupon' in AmE. Rude Health cereals have this ace competition where you(BrE) <b>cut out</b>/(AmE)<b>clip</b> the token/coupon and complete the sentence "I like tokens because..." The best answer wins a hundred tokens.<br /><br />Oh and the South Park joke is as obvious to BrE speakers as it is to AmE I'd say. The construction "The token x" is very common. I have often been 'x' myself :) Little claim to fame there.Solohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09740368155249391858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-76244717094646872722010-06-16T16:54:54.619+01:002010-06-16T16:54:54.619+01:00we used to have record tokens as well (very simila...we used to have record tokens as well (very similar to book tokens), which were always my favourite gift as a kid. <br /><br />the scheme died when the individual retailers pulled out of the scheme one by one and introduced their own - like the HMV Gift Card for exampleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-49039402423187275192010-06-16T15:50:12.820+01:002010-06-16T15:50:12.820+01:00Lynneguist: Before magnetic strips, London Undergr...Lynneguist: Before magnetic strips, London Underground tickets were just little cardboard oblongs printed with the name of your destination. You'd hand them to the ticket collector when you got there.<br /><br />I moved out of London before Oyster cards. I clearly remember my Underground season tickets (magnetic-strip variety), renewed every year. Luckily, my employer offered interest-free loans to pay for the things.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com