tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post6221877929495779390..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: self-cateringlynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-24038710618767412572019-05-05T17:36:16.989+01:002019-05-05T17:36:16.989+01:00BrE. Vaguely on topic. Something no-one else has m...BrE. Vaguely on topic. Something no-one else has mentioned is that in the US, you only pay for the room, no matter how many occupants. Although this is becoming common in the U.K., it is still also very common for rates to be quoted as per person per room: worth checking before you book.Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-81081772588676907502015-04-22T14:09:58.012+01:002015-04-22T14:09:58.012+01:00Re-reading this, one point that was not made earli...Re-reading this, one point that was not made earlier was that package holidays first became popular in the UK in the 1950s and 1960s when there were stringent currency controls in place, and one could take very little money out of the country. If you booked a package holiday, everything was paid for before you left the UK, in sterling, so apart from a little money for drinks and souvenirs, you didn't have to worry. Obviously the convenience of having everything booked, and not having to wrestle with a foreign language was also a factor, but it was the currency controls that really helped the idea take off. <br /><br />In these days where you can just get cash out of the nearest ATM, no matter what country you are in, this seems amazing... the past, as I appear to have said some years ago upthread, is indeed another country!Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-91178412770189564522015-04-21T22:45:15.999+01:002015-04-21T22:45:15.999+01:00so it's a little late in the game, but I see o...so it's a little late in the game, but I see other recent comments. <br /><br />Coming from western Canada I've never seen the term 'self-catering' before reading this post.<br /><br />The standard expectation I'd have from various places to stay away from home would be:<br />motel or inn - no food<br />hotel - no food unless they mention 'continental breakfast included' <br />B&B - breakfast only (and fancy)<br />resort - either no food -or- "all inclusive" which means all food, & all drinks<br />lodge/chalet - no food but a kitchen where you can prepare your own<br /><br />note for a hotel you may get a small room or one with a 'kitchenette' where you could prepare your own food<br /><br />the all inclusive resort in Mexico is a very popular package destination for many of my peers and was for our parents (boomers) too<br /><br />end note; I've never seen the term 'self-drive' either so I don't get a feel for it being any more plausible than the rest of these odd self- phrasescrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-19246303719233654312014-04-17T12:23:39.994+01:002014-04-17T12:23:39.994+01:00Albert
I do not 'make a distinction between s...Albert<br /><br />I do not <i>'make a distinction between <b>self-chauffering</b> and <b>self-driving'</b></i>. The formal difference is obvious. It's hard to make any other comparisons because neither is an established word. <i>Self-driving</i> looks more plausible because of its obvious relationship to <i>self-drive</i>. <b>Self-chauffering</b> is a hypothetical term that Ted invented to make a point.<br /><br /><b>Self-catering</b> is (in Britain) an entirely established term. The tourism industry couldn't do without it — they'd have to invent a word with exactly the same meaning. <b>Self-cooking</b> is another hypothetical fabrication. And there isn't a related word such as <i>self-cook</i> on which to base an interpretation.<br /><br />What I'm sure Ted meant by <b>illogical</b> is 'It doesn't make sense' — in this case doesn't lend itself to interpretation by analysis. I used the word <b>logical</b> to mean no more than 'Yes it <i><b>does</b></i> make sense' — in this case is interpretable from meanings of <b>self-</b> and <b>catering</b>.<br /><br />OK, it's the less usual sense of <b>self-</b> when compounded with a verbal noun. In words like <i>self-doubt, self-loathing, self-control</i> it related to the OBJECT of the transitive verbs <i>doubt, loathe, control</i>.<br /><br />But there's another sense of <b>self-</b> compounded with verbal nouns: <br />• <i>self-assembly</i> where you 'assemble it yourself' whereas it's customary to buy the furniture (or whatever) already assembled in a factory or workshop<br />• <i>self-study</i> where you 'study the teaching material yourself ' whereas it's customary to be taught be a teacher/instructor/lecturer.<br /><br />For me at least <b>self-drive</b> and <b>self-catering</b> make sense in just the same way<br /><br />• a <i>self-drive van</i> is 'a van that you drive yourself' whereas it's customary to hire a van with a driver to shift the amount of stuff that fits in a van.<br /><br />• a <i>self-catering holiday/cottage/apartment</i> is 'a holiday/cottage/apartment where you do the catering yourself' whereas it's customary for the owners to supply catering — procuring of food and preparation of meals — as part of the deal.<br /><br />If a travel firm were to offer <b>self-cooking</b> accommodation, I'd be very surprised but I'd try to make sense of it. I would, tentatively, conclude that they were promising to supply sufficient food for meals, and the necessary equipment and utensils to cook it myself.<br /><br />The whole argument may simply reflect different AmE and BrE understandings of the word <b>catering</b>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-2809304984032113872014-04-16T03:51:24.827+01:002014-04-16T03:51:24.827+01:00Massachusetts-
@David Crosbie
To riposte your ri...Massachusetts-<br /><br />@David Crosbie<br /><br />To riposte your riposte, as Lynne mentions in here other post on catering, Americans use catering less broadly than the English.<br /><br />Just as you make a distinction between self-chauffeuring and self-driving, an American would make a similar distinction between self-catering and self-cooking.<br /><br />I also pause at your description of self-drive as the "logical" term.<br /><br />Logical is a loaded term in dialect discussions much as "correct" is.<br /><br />Language can be standard or non-standard, consistent or inconsistent, but rarely logical.<br /><br />Logic itself of course has its own language.<br /><br />In regard to the original post, my experience of traveling in America is that while the default unstated arrangement is to receive no breakfast with your room, most hotels, even cheap ones will advertise a buffet-style "continental breakfast". This usually includes coffee, orange juice, milk, cold cereals, scrambled eggs, bacon, sausage bagels and muffins. It often includes pancakes, toast or french toast and whole fruit.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02138260302522477243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-75014030568538234542012-08-26T11:42:54.134+01:002012-08-26T11:42:54.134+01:00The past, David Crosbie, is another country - they...The past, David Crosbie, is another country - they do things differently there! Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-820533274492409522012-08-26T00:20:55.295+01:002012-08-26T00:20:55.295+01:00Mrs Redboots
I lived somewhere like that for a fe...Mrs Redboots<br /><br /><i>I lived somewhere like that for a few months in 1979,</i><br /><br />Longer than that and it would have been called <i><b>'service flat'</b></i>.<br /><br /><i>not because I was homeless but in the hiatus between my flat's coming to an end and getting married.</i><br /><br />Younger readers must be wondering why you didn't move in with your future husband. If your younger self were in this position today, surely that's what she'd do. OK, you've told us that you're a lay preacher, but surely today's congregations would believe you if you explained that it was all chaste and proper.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-43785108024253714612012-08-25T12:53:27.052+01:002012-08-25T12:53:27.052+01:00Ted
It's a bit late, but I feel this deserves...Ted<br /><br />It's a bit late, but I feel this deserves a riposte.<br /><br /><i> "Self-catering" sounds like an oxymoron. (The only other thing it could be would be an absurdly complicated and pretentious way to say "cooking" - the equivalent of "self-chauffeuring" for "driving.")</i><br /><br />It's entirely a matter of context. <i>Catering</i> is a service offered in contexts where people do not prepare meals for themselves. <br /><br />Paid holiday accommodation is one such context. — the norm of a holiday is that meals are special and you don't cook or prepare them yourself. In hotel accommodation all meals are offered, in B&B only one, and in <i>'demi-pemsion'</i> (sometimes <i>half-board'</i> in English) two meals are offered. Of course, if you go camping, or if you hire cottage, flat or wherever, then catering is not the expected norm — but nor are such other housekeeping services as having your beds made. <br /><br /> is the <b>perfect</b> term for the in-between accommodation which provides <b>all</b> the services missing from many campsites and rented rooms/flats/houses — with the sole exception of catering.<br /><br />There's nothing illogical in <i>self-chauffeuring</i>. It's just that the context would be odd. There are many contexts where a customer might expect the context of a driver. There are fewer, but still some, where a customer requires the service of the same driver in the same car over and extended period. <br /><br />In these contexts, people who normally drive themselves hire the service of car+driver. For the reduced service of car only, we use the logical term <i>'self-drive'</i>.<br /><br />There are contexts where you want the driver to be in a recognisable uniform — because of the prestige and/or formality of the event you're going to. It's not impossible to think of a context where you might require a <i>chauffeur-driven</i> car without a <i>chauffeur</i>, but it in rather far fetched. The necessary conditions would be:<br /><br />• It's occasion where people are expected to arrive in chauffeur-driven cars.<br />• You can't afford one — or don't choose to.<br />• You're able to park your car, remove your chauffeur's hat and introduce yourself to the hosts without being noticed.<br /><br />Now that's what I call <i>self-chauffering</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-33742840489749996402012-08-24T22:48:47.658+01:002012-08-24T22:48:47.658+01:00I lived somewhere like that for a few months in 19...I lived somewhere like that for a few months in 1979, not because I was homeless but in the hiatus between my flat's coming to an end and getting married. No hard-boiled eggs - "breakfast" was a slice of white bread, a pat of butter, and a tea-bag!Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9407420107352454962012-08-24T13:21:54.272+01:002012-08-24T13:21:54.272+01:00I can remember being miffed the morning after stay...I can remember being miffed the morning after staying at the Angel Hotel in Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk in 1985 to discover that breakfast wasn't included and had to be paid for. My American partner explained that that was the norm in the US, which I hadn't yet visited. I'd stayed in motels in Canada before without breakfast, but then the idea of a motel was a novelty to me and I was aware that they were a convenience not a luxury. <br /><br />Lynne is right to point out the huge spread of standards in B&Bs – my fondest memories of lavish breakfasts in wilder parts of Scotland abide with me, but there was also an explosion of urban B&Bs in the 1980s, exploiting loopholes in the laws introduced to deal with a huge increase in homelessness. As a local councillor in London I went out for a day with the inspectors whose job was to ensure that at least the letter of the law was applied; alas they had no power to do more. A mother and two children could be found sharing a rickety bed in a tiny room in a house where the owner provided a bowl of cold hard-boiled eggs in the morning to meet the minimum criteria of 'breakfast', this ensuring that the residents had no rights or security whatever.<br /><br />Lynne, may I go off-topic to correct something I find myself correcting much too often as it's one of my <i>bêtes noires</i>? Jill wrote: <br /><br /><i>I was amused at how surprised the English people in the choir were that the Australian singer and I were entirely unfamiliar with the hymn Jerusalem (from the poem by Blake).</i><br /><br />and provided a link to Blake's long illustrated poem called Jerusalem. However, the lines beginning<br /><br /><i>And did those feet, in Ancient time</i><br /><br />come from the preface to another long Blake poem called Milton, and are set to the tune called Jerusalem by Hubert Parry.enitharmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17829757748223670291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-85760624124538533012011-11-17T22:19:39.583+00:002011-11-17T22:19:39.583+00:00What I (AmE) have always found particularly jarrin...What I (AmE) have always found particularly jarring about the term "self-catering" is that catering has a specific meaning of "serving food to other people," e.g. at what we'd refer to as a "function" (a class of gathering whose Venn diagram intersects with, but neither entirely includes nor is entirely included within, "party").<br /><br />It would be perfectly logical to say something like "I don't feel like cooking for Thanksgiving this year, so I'm going to have it catered" - the point being precisely that someone else is doing the cooking. "Self-catering" sounds like an oxymoron. (The only other thing it could be would be an absurdly complicated and pretentious way to say "cooking" - the equivalent of "self-chauffeuring" for "driving.")<br /><br />As a side note, the BrE construction "cater for" also sounds wrong to my ears. We cater to people's needs, never for them. I'm not sure, but I think BrE may even refer to catering for the people with the needs rather than the needs themselves, which sounds two kinds of wrong. A hotel that offers babysitting services might say that it caters to the needs of parents of small children. Would the equivalent in BrE be "catering for parents with small children"? (And wouldn't that be understood instead as "serving food at functions hosted by parents of small children"?)Tednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-62821978642559724782010-08-04T10:59:15.437+01:002010-08-04T10:59:15.437+01:00@anonymous: Aviatrix does mean 'English muffin...@anonymous: Aviatrix does mean 'English muffins', since she's not talking about muffins in England. They're a North American delicacy, and nothing like crumpets except in that they are similar size and have holes. Please see the <a href="http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2006/07/baked-goods.html" rel="nofollow">'baked goods' post</a> for more info!lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-25318067834016893132010-08-04T08:58:39.444+01:002010-08-04T08:58:39.444+01:00Aviatrix, those aren't English muffins, those ...Aviatrix, those aren't English muffins, those are crumpets. English muffins have no holes, they're just flat bread type things that are nice toasted. <br /><br />To me, self-catering accommodation has a slight connotation of increased privacy compared with hotels and B&Bs - you're often in a separate building, not just a room next door to strangers, potentially with paper-thin walls. You also don't have members of staff watching you as you come and go.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-6230815870200072002009-09-13T04:20:13.918+01:002009-09-13T04:20:13.918+01:00In England and Wales (and Ireland before 1923), ch...In England and Wales (and Ireland before 1923), <i>church</i> was a term of legal significance: it could only be applied to a building belonging to the Church of England (or Ireland) by law established; all other religious buildings, be they never so grand, were in law <i>chapels</i>. Whether this meant 'Catholic' or 'non-conformist Protestant' in ordinary speech would naturally depend on how many of each sort were around. Even in Ireland, the older generation (I'm told) still avoids <i>going to church</i> in favor of <i>going to Mass</i> or <i>chapel</i>.<br /><br />When the Welsh Church was disestablished in 1920 (the opposition to this being known of course as <i>anti-disestablishmentarianism</i>), the law doing so referred to the "properties of the Church [of England] in Wales", with the odd effect that Welsh Anglicanism is now called <i>The Church in Wales</i> rather than <i>of Wales</i>.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-88706059216070969722009-09-08T22:06:40.167+01:002009-09-08T22:06:40.167+01:00Robbie, I thought that was the point I'd made!...Robbie, I thought that was the point I'd made!lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-24573813276779553592009-09-08T13:42:44.388+01:002009-09-08T13:42:44.388+01:00This might be a good place to note the UK-US diffe...This might be a good place to note the UK-US difference in "bed and breakfast".<br /><br />In the UK, a B&B means basic digs. It's a place to sleep and put your bags, and have breakfast in the morning (and maybe dinner in the evening at extra cost), and that's pretty much it. Useful when passing through a town for a day or two, or as a base for a very cheap holiday for students or broke young couples.<br /><br />In the US, a B&B is usually a pricey private hotel with lots of frills and furbelows. You're expected to consider it a destination in itself, a fancy hotel combined with a homely or family feel.Robbienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-64902607115219760312009-08-25T00:19:00.005+01:002009-08-25T00:19:00.005+01:00I've come across a new term in the eastern US:...I've come across a new term in the eastern US: Modified American Plan. That is breakfast and dinner included with the room.<br /><br />Super-8s these days have a reasonable breakfast, with yogourt and waffles and toast and muffins (cupcake-sized raised sweetened bread, often with nuts or fruit in them) and English muffins (round flat plainish things with holes to soak up lots of butter).Aviatrixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13634111275860140084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-91926395647866557052009-08-18T01:18:55.321+01:002009-08-18T01:18:55.321+01:00Lynne, it warms my heart that your hometown is New...Lynne, it warms my heart that your hometown is Newark. I'll have to check out the B&B next time I'm home visiting my family in Palmyra.ixojhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16541098796052272142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-26199074310534541172009-08-12T22:38:00.374+01:002009-08-12T22:38:00.374+01:00Darcherd, actually I was quoting Lynne in the firs...Darcherd, actually I was quoting Lynne in the first part of my post and my own comment was from a UK perspective. It's a good few years since I was last in America. Off the top of my head I don't remember ever getting breakfast included with a room there. (Of course there was free ice in volumes you'd never see here in the UK!)Shaun Clarksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290670832534929741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-50504367196391625072009-08-11T23:38:43.589+01:002009-08-11T23:38:43.589+01:00I (Am) also recall the "American Plan" a...I (Am) also recall the "American Plan" and "European Plan" descriptions from my youth, but one scarcely encounters them anymore on the left side of the pond.<br /><br />Shuan Clarkson is correct that North American hotels are increasingly offering breakfast as part of the price of a room, though the phenomenon seems to be restricted primarily to the mid-range hotels, particularly those chains which cater to families and private travelers(Comfort Inn, Best Western, Shilo, Rodeway, etc.) If low-end chains such as Super8 offer "breakfast" it's likely to be bad coffee and a cellophone-wrapped danish with a sell-by date measured in centuries.<br /><br />And hotels catering to the business traveler and luxury market almost never include breakfast because such guests are either on an expense account or don't need to count their pennies, and thus the hotel can increase its gross margin handily from high-priced breakfasts served to a more-or-less captive audience.darcherdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-46498298619367086702009-08-09T00:53:32.890+01:002009-08-09T00:53:32.890+01:00I'm currently seeing an ad for self-catering a...I'm currently seeing an ad for self-catering apartments on the front page. It has the slogan, "Your at home seriously".<br /><br />Leaving aside the "your" vs. "you're" issue, I would think that being <i>anywhere</i> "seriously" might be less than a sparkling endorsement in the eyes of someone looking for a vacation/holiday.<br /><br />Note: Before re-reading this comment, I had "ringing endorsement". I don't think that "ringing ... in the eyes" quite conveyed the image I wanted, though. 8-)Doug Sundsethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848091504066560951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-87124162017383033222009-08-08T16:13:25.266+01:002009-08-08T16:13:25.266+01:00In the Republic of Ireland "RC chapel" c...In the Republic of Ireland "RC chapel" came off the Ordnance Survey maps after 1922. And the "cabins" of the peasantry became "cottages"; the large two-storey country cottages of England could never be called cottages over here.mollymoolynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-76198928546463238442009-08-07T22:26:52.002+01:002009-08-07T22:26:52.002+01:00@ Cameron: This is true in Northern Ireland, too, ...@ Cameron: This is true in Northern Ireland, too, but in Southern England a "chapel" tends to be non-conformist! Confusing, or what?Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-80723633420285711632009-08-07T21:23:44.738+01:002009-08-07T21:23:44.738+01:00In Glasgow (and possibly the rest of Scotland, alt...In Glasgow (and possibly the rest of Scotland, although I doubt it) a chapel is always and specifically a Catholic church, sometimes rhyming slanged as "the pineapple". As a boy it confused me to hear the churches in places like Edinburgh Castle referred to as "St. Margaret's Chapel" and the like.Cameronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-17912874742760999032009-08-07T17:44:53.905+01:002009-08-07T17:44:53.905+01:00@Bill - I doubt a catholic would have darkened a p...@Bill - I doubt a catholic would have darkened a protestant church's doors, but within the protestant (and particularly the non-conformist protestants, i.e. not Anglicans) the minor distinctions between the various 'chapels' would have been easier to overcome.disgruntledhttp://cityexile.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com