tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post6353854645914462133..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: with regard(s) tolynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-11743123930407227622011-01-29T21:34:47.542+00:002011-01-29T21:34:47.542+00:00@Marc: I have used google ngrams before and will u...@Marc: I have used google ngrams before and will use them in the next post, but they are not comparable to using a proper corpus. First, it's all edited English, so we wouldn't expect to find many of the non-standard plurals. If we did, they might be in fictional dialogue, in which case they're representing somebody's idea of how non-standard speakers talk, and goodness knows what dialect those speakers are supposed to be speaking. I'm also not very confident about their classification of texts as BrE or AmE. On what did they judge? Place of publication? All of my books have British publishers, but in most cases the publisher made it clear that their authors are free to use American English or British English (as long as they use it consistently) because of the international nature of the audience. <br /><br />One also can't see the sources, just the results, in the Google ngram. So, while I was able to check the BNC data for cases in which the 'greetings' sense may have been used, I could not have done the same with the ngram, nor could I have seen how many of the entries were style guides simply warning against the use of the plural. <br /><br />So, I'd say, the ngrams are interesting for items of vocabulary that are readily accepted as 'standard', but not so good for things from smaller-than-national dialects and other non-standardisms.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-42051721138354408562011-01-29T10:53:33.772+00:002011-01-29T10:53:33.772+00:00You mention the Corpus of Historical American Engl...You mention the Corpus of Historical American English (COHA), and a lack of equivalent for BrE. Can I point you to the following article in the Guardian (http://tinyurl.com/25b7t9s), and the wonderfully simple Google implementation of the above tool referenced therein (http://ngrams.googlelabs.com) which does offer AmE and BrE specific searches, among others.Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-63722862237843105772011-01-28T16:14:08.222+00:002011-01-28T16:14:08.222+00:00@Andy J
"But the Generals present regarded t...@Andy J<br /><br /><i>"But the Generals present regarded the remedy worse than the evil" ... Today that would not raise an eyebrow </i><br /><br />It would raise at least two (assuming that "worse" is here regarded as an adjective rather than an adverb, which seems likely) I would require an "as" in that sentence. Can you point to examples of this "as"-less usage in contemporary mainstream prose?vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-51258208015788287352011-01-28T15:38:19.670+00:002011-01-28T15:38:19.670+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-46496951325938817242011-01-28T15:06:10.910+00:002011-01-28T15:06:10.910+00:00Fowler (1st edn, 1926) does talk at some length ab...Fowler (1st edn, 1926) does talk at some length about "with regard to" and "in regard to" and "as regards", but doesn't seem to be aware of the uses "with/in regards to" - but then nor does Gowers (Fowler 2nd edn, 1965), and nor does Burchfield (Fowler 3rd edn, 1996).<br /><br />MWDEU says "our evidence suggests 'in regards to' is an oral use not found in edited prose."<br /><br />The fulmination against regard without "as" in cases such as "But the Generals present regarded the remedy worse than the evil" was in the first edition, but Burchfield also regards this form as unidiomatic and so, I must say, do I. My eyebrow was very much raised. MWDEU comments on the controversy but seems to think the form is rarely found.Pickynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-13629965417908172462011-01-28T12:44:14.737+00:002011-01-28T12:44:14.737+00:00I was interested by your (Lynne's) comment tha...I was interested by your (Lynne's) comment that Fowler was silent on the subject so I consulted my 2nd Edition (reprinted 1988) copy and he has a fairly long article on the subject of <i>regard</i> and under <i>compound prepositions</i>, so I guess this was edited out of the later editions. <br />It was amusing to see Fowler (or maybe Gowers) fulminating on the use of the verb <i>regard</i> on its own without a post <i>as</i> in phrases where <i>consider</i> would be an alternative, for example: <i>But the Generals present regarded the remedy worse than the evil</i>. Today that would not raise an eyebrow, but Fowler would have required the insertion of <i>as</i> before <i>worse</i>.Andy Jnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-78932535223614680472011-01-27T20:46:46.922+00:002011-01-27T20:46:46.922+00:00"Or, conversely, what a sub-optimal, unsympat..."Or, conversely, what a sub-optimal, unsympathetic regard might look like?"<br /><br />I think I'm right in saying that to the typical American it looks like British customer service...Shaun Clarksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290670832534929741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-25295005578253275652011-01-27T02:12:39.896+00:002011-01-27T02:12:39.896+00:00I have always used the 'with regards to' f...I have always used the 'with regards to' form and to me the non-pluralised form seems wrong.<br /><br />I always assumed it was like the forward/forwards and backward/backwards differece between BrE and AmE - guess I was wrong. I have however never been picked up for using 'regards to' at school or university and I'm pretty sure most of my professors use it too.Zachnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-24120657347933051442011-01-26T17:49:12.253+00:002011-01-26T17:49:12.253+00:00Thank you for bringing attention to this transitio...Thank you for bringing attention to this transition in English! After repeating the phrase several times to myself, I realized that I would never write the plural "in/with regard(s) to", but would accept it, and use it, in spoken English. The line is blurring!<br /><br />Another spoken error that gives local flavor is "there's" for plural and singular objects. "There's two here." is ok, but only spoken. Even educated people say this in casual contexts although they'd never write it.<br /><br />Any ol' excuse to use that lovely continuant, fricative /z/. <br /><br />-Ellen, 26, Oregon, USAEllen Glekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04122464206604629762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-21982675358952348752011-01-26T17:12:38.002+00:002011-01-26T17:12:38.002+00:00Oooh, this British academic would usually write &#...Oooh, this British academic would usually write 'with regard to', but preferably 'regarding', and if in note form one writes 're' [re your previous comment] - but I can hear myself using regards in speech.<br /><br />My peeve, since it seems to be the fashion, concerns 'concerning', which might have been similar to 'regarding' as used above - but now is often used to mean 'worrying' or 'causing concern'. [this is a concerning development] Scope for lots of confusion and ambiguity there!biochemistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-44667770610900025472011-01-26T17:11:31.797+00:002011-01-26T17:11:31.797+00:00Memory is an unreliable bunch of twisted things, o...Memory is an unreliable bunch of twisted things, of course, but (for what it's worth) mine (BrE) suggests that I have been hearing the "with/in regards to" error all my lengthy life, and that it has been considered all that time to be a solecism and a social class marker. Mind you, almost everything in BrE is a class marker, of course.Pickynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-33074298089055849502011-01-26T16:06:22.096+00:002011-01-26T16:06:22.096+00:00I'm bilingual Norwegian - (British) English an...I'm bilingual Norwegian - (British) English and I have used ''in/with regards to'' probably all my life without anyone pointing out that there was something odd about that expression. Until I spent an exchange year in California and a TA advised me to [maybe try and look for synonyms] (quote from a term paper). <br /><br />As Arnie mentioned above, I think many British prescriptivists tend to blame AmE influence for every thing that is considered 'wrong' or anomalous in BrE.-Ingeborg Sophiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10186206939751099592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-11708390944371135842011-01-26T12:23:19.445+00:002011-01-26T12:23:19.445+00:00(that is, mot properly edited at all).
To prove my...<i>(that is, mot properly edited at all).</i><br />To prove my point, that should have read:<br /><i>(that is, <b>not</b> properly edited at all).</i> <br />Despite re-reading and previewing my post, I still missed that typo.arniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13068830078875310006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-78864062941754005782011-01-26T12:18:18.547+00:002011-01-26T12:18:18.547+00:00Many British peevers tend to blame "Americani...Many British peevers tend to blame "Americanisms" for a lot of perceived solecisms. The non-standard s in the idiom is usually edited out of published work. If the BNC has a large proportion of spoken English, that may well be the reason for the discrepancy, as you suggest. Since the corpora are now including items published on the Internet, over time I would think that both British and American uses of the plural versions will appear to rise, as so much is self-edited (that is, mot properly edited at all). <br /><br />I tend to avoid both (all four?) constructions; what's wrong with "regarding"?arniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13068830078875310006noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-91522889541176297672011-01-26T11:30:25.582+00:002011-01-26T11:30:25.582+00:00I read vast quantities of printed text, watch rela...I read vast quantities of printed text, watch relatively little American television, and "with regards to" has - I think - always been my preference. I shall have to put it down to a "regional and nonstandard" upbringing, but that's fine by me - after all, the other version is regional, too. It's just that region that doesn't get marked as such, like RP speakers claiming not to have an accent.<br /><br />Do I sound a little peeved? Perhaps. This column certainly sounded rather snobbish.<br /><br />Nineveh_uk @LJAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-68249214552945941552011-01-26T11:20:33.616+00:002011-01-26T11:20:33.616+00:00Consulting my internal grammar, "in regards&q...Consulting my internal grammar, "in regards" is obviously wrong, but "with regards" is perfectly correct.<br /><br />Following on from this "in regards to" is wrong as soon as I reach the regards, whereas "with regards to" is just a bit off when I reach "to"; so I even though I agree it's wrong in theory, in practice I wouldn't notice the mistake.Dave bushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17325623829490899411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-78882120533881047662011-01-26T10:52:27.507+00:002011-01-26T10:52:27.507+00:00On reading this post I didn't have much of an ...On reading this post I didn't have much of an intuition about which of 'regard(s)' I preferred. So I checked the text of a review I have just sent off. It turns out I used 'with regard to' and 'with regards to' once each. Looks like the variation occurs on a micro level too, at least in my personal grammar (British English).superdinosaurboynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-3811364181118734202011-01-26T08:26:41.026+00:002011-01-26T08:26:41.026+00:00I follow your voiced/unvoiced distinction in regar...I follow your voiced/unvoiced distinction in regard to possessive nouns ending in S, Lynne. Traditionally that is what has been done. Many writing handbooks today, however, say adding 's is fine.<br /><br />As a Canadian, I keep my regard singular in those prepositional phrases as you outline (except for "give my regards" and using the word as a verb). I believe I always use "in regard" never "with regard" which sounds American to me for some reason.Nickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00092926714785776813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-77059222918287784002011-01-26T08:23:20.337+00:002011-01-26T08:23:20.337+00:00If we are allowed to do peeves in this discussion,...If we are allowed to do peeves in this discussion, can anyone explain to me how regards can be "best" or "kind"? Or, conversely, what a sub-optimal, unsympathetic regard might look like?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-59351827377654263612011-01-26T06:50:18.027+00:002011-01-26T06:50:18.027+00:00Reading Layah's comment, it struck me that Lyn...Reading Layah's comment, it struck me that Lynne ought do a post in "As far as X [is concerned]". Or perhaps she already has?vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-61153208490601802182011-01-26T06:15:33.398+00:002011-01-26T06:15:33.398+00:00I started college in 2001, so I only have experien...I started college in 2001, so I only have experience of teaching in that era, but I can't imagine a teacher in any discipline handing back a paper without marking grammatical errors. If students are getting to college (university) without the ability to write in standard English (which they are), then I think the college would be failing them if they graduated and were still unable to write in standard English.<br /><br />As far as regards versus regard, for me (28, California) in regards to sounds absolutely wrong and with regards to sounds a bit better. My two roommates both disagree, and prefer the plural. We all agree that we would rather use some other phrase, especially regarding or concerning, to either of those.<br /><br />I don't recall ever being taught the correct form, which probably means it's not something my high school teachers thought was important.Layahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-29763360274351202011-01-26T04:07:23.314+00:002011-01-26T04:07:23.314+00:00When I edit other folks' text, I try to get ri...When I edit other folks' text, I try to get rid of expressions such as the ones being discussed and "concerning". If you want to write about something, just write about it.<br /><br />I'm interested by Lynne's postscript on how university-teachers might see it as part of their job to help their students write well. I never encountered this in the 1970s (even though I was in an English-language department) but I did in the noughties, which is surprising, because I thought things had become progressively more chilled as time has passed.Paul Danonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04816761952837296368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-67608370140377104412011-01-26T01:37:53.305+00:002011-01-26T01:37:53.305+00:00MWDEU has a similar discussion:
"The second ...MWDEU has a similar discussion:<br /><br />"The second line of comment* goes back at least as far as McCracken & Sandison 1917, where "in regards to" used in place of "in regard to" is cited as an error. The adherents to this line are also numerous, but they are almost all American (the one exception is Longman 1988). The issue in this case appears to be largely a social one. "In regards to" seems to be an expression heard chiefly from those who speak H.L. Mencken's 'vulgate.'<br /><br />"Most of our citations were taken from phone-in radio programs.<br /><br />...<br /><br />"Our evidence suggests that "in regards to" is an oral use not found in edited prose."<br /><br />FWIW, I share vp's peeve, but then I consider AP to be, at best, questionable in several broad categories of stylistic dispute.<br /><br />* The first line discusses judgement** of "as regards" and "with regard to" as "circumlocutory and jargonistic".<br /><br />** I prefer the British spelling here, though my browser objects.Doug Sundsethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848091504066560951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-34853719062391161122011-01-26T01:05:12.616+00:002011-01-26T01:05:12.616+00:00Coincidentally, the AP Stylebook tweeted on this e...Coincidentally, the AP Stylebook tweeted on this earlier this evening, and I was following their style. But in the book manuscript we just submitted, we used 's. I tend to think that it should differ according to whether the name-final 's' is voiced [z] or not [s]. But no one else is going to follow me on that, I think.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-49739811583182039742011-01-26T00:51:52.836+00:002011-01-26T00:51:52.836+00:00Since you're talking what appears to be your o...Since you're talking what appears to be your own private peeve, I'll go off-topic immediately and say that your use of "Mark Davies'" as the possessive of "Mark Davies" (rather than "Mark Davies's") has hit my latest annoyance button.<br /><br />I'm not sure that there's any particular US/UK distribution to this, but I'm glad to get it off my chest.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.com