tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post6713188949958745278..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: autumnal holidayslynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-55010908522931391512012-08-19T23:27:05.504+01:002012-08-19T23:27:05.504+01:00Nothing eclipses Bonfire Night here in East Sussex...Nothing eclipses Bonfire Night here in East Sussex...<br /><br />Except maybe the Bonfire Night traffic.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-67707769281694294462012-08-19T23:03:21.824+01:002012-08-19T23:03:21.824+01:00Maybe some of the resentment of Hallowe'en (pe...Maybe some of the resentment of Hallowe'en (pedants like me like to insist on that apostrophe) is that it has usurped Bonfire Night, and thus another quintessentially English ritual falls to American hegemony.<br /><br />Bonfire nights are a pale shadow of the ones of my childhood. Probably they always were, but I remember them as occasions built up to for weeks, gathering wood for the fire, making a guy (although the idea of an autumn fire festival is much older than the Gunpowder Plot and is clearly, to me anyway, a marker of the end of the harvest, clearing the ground for the nest growing season. Bonfire night meant home-made treacle toffee, toffee apples, brandy-snap and potatoes baked in the embers of the fire. Commerce couldn't get a toehold on it.<br /><br />We did hallowe'en too when I was a child, but trick-or-treat didn't figure. Instead we did things like bobbing for apples and I seem to recall it being called bob-apple or duck-apple night. Perhaps this was a regional thing but it also connects with the end-of-the-harvest theme. There were turnip lanterns too; none of us had ever seen a pumpkin. The fact that we called them turnip lanterns suggests to me a Scottish origin, since they were made out of a (ScoE)turnip/(EngE)swede/(AmE)rutabaga.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-64783135173310321052011-10-06T00:22:38.338+01:002011-10-06T00:22:38.338+01:00When I was growing up in England, I coped with aut...When I was growing up in England, I coped with autumn/Fall by consuming large quantities of alcohol. Are you trying to tell me that there are some Brits who survive without doing this?vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-24372374963960321582011-10-05T23:40:58.924+01:002011-10-05T23:40:58.924+01:00Halloween in LA and San Francisco has been known a...Halloween in LA and San Francisco has been known as something of a gay holiday for quite a while. A lot of people (gay and straight) go dressed up in costume and celebrate in W. Hollywood. Is it viewed that way in other parts of the US or in the U.K? I was also surprised to read in that linked BBC article that kids ask for money and not just candy? Is that an English thing? Its all about the fun size chocolates where I'm from.<br />Mischief Night is unknown in California. It's all treat and no trick. <br />Dia de Los Muertos is a holiday that is becoming more popular in California. <br />Is Black Friday a holiday? If it is, is it the last of the autumnal holidays or the first of the winter holidays?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-52451837813384285422011-10-05T21:59:33.975+01:002011-10-05T21:59:33.975+01:00I've never seen Hallow'een treated as you ...I've never seen Hallow'een treated as you describe, but I live in Scotland Kids used to have to do a trick or sing a wee song to get their money/food in the old days! <br />There's usually always a ceilidh to be found somewhere around St. Andrews day as well.Alexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-80674163073325828642010-11-10T00:48:18.411+00:002010-11-10T00:48:18.411+00:00US Northeast...
One of the fonder memories I have...US Northeast...<br /><br />One of the fonder memories I have of Halloween was the carving of the pumpkin into a jack-o-lantern and the subsequent <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepita" rel="nofollow">roasting of the pumpkin seeds.</a><br /><br />Did this ritual make it over to the UK?Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06437912152859757928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-86710686098204523302010-11-05T21:03:29.880+00:002010-11-05T21:03:29.880+00:00Thanks, Harry.
There's not much to say about ...Thanks, Harry.<br /><br />There's not much to say about a place where you can't have fireworks, except that one is not allowed to sell fireworks to people without professional licen{s/c}es there. (Sparklers were an exception.) That kind of law is passed at state level (or perhaps even more local level in some states), so while we couldn't do much with fireworks where I come from, it was a big deal to go visit my cousins in Indiana where they could more easily be bought and fired off. And in Texas, there are fireworks shops all over at the sides of roads. I don't know what other states are as restrictive as New York (at least as it was when I was a kid--for all I know, the laws may have changed).<br /><br />Hearing a lot of fireworks in Brighton tonight!lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-8035953292453275692010-11-05T17:36:01.707+00:002010-11-05T17:36:01.707+00:00It may be a nice family celebration today but I ga...It may be a nice family celebration today but I gather trick or treating was anything but innocent in 19th-century America. Apparently serious vandalism was sometimes the consequence of not complying with the demands of the trick-or-treater: windows broken, sheds set on fire, etc. For all some Brits disapprove of it, I don't think it gets very boisterous today.<br /><br />I feel that the problem with these celebrations is that kids naturally have much higher aspirations. A mere handful of sweets or nuts or something is not much of a thrill in these times of plenty when people spend more time trying NOT to eat to much high-calorie, allergenic food, so money is likely to be the loot of choice. Perhaps it might be a thrill at a certain age to be allowed to roam the streets unaccompanied only by one's friends, but I gather it's now normal to be chaperoned by parents.Harry Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01675794936870568336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90124921588565242162010-11-05T17:16:44.659+00:002010-11-05T17:16:44.659+00:00I'd have to take respectful issue with deariem...I'd have to take respectful issue with dearieme's claim that Scotland has more or better winter celebrations than England. As far as I can see, Burns Night is a distinctly middle-class affair celebrated in private mainly under the auspices of institutions like regiments, universities, Burns clubs and so on. At risk of straying off-topic, I can't help noting that it's typically surrounded by the tartan trappings of the English-government-controlled, commercially-driven contruction of Scottish identity. Did Burns ever wear a kilt? It was literally illegal for most of his lifetime.<br /><br />As for St Andrew's Day, well, it's a bank holiday. Perhaps it's an excuse for a ceilidh in some circles but after 15 years in Scotland I couldn't begin to tell you what if any distinctive customs it involves and I suspect many Scots would struggle to name the day of their patron saint. It could not be more different from folk traditions like Guy Fawkes Day or Hallowe'en -- or St Patrick's Day.Harry Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01675794936870568336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-42241916488639866182010-11-05T17:02:19.015+00:002010-11-05T17:02:19.015+00:00What an interesting post.
I'd be interested t...What an interesting post.<br /><br />I'd be interested to hear more about "a place where mere citizens are not allowed to have fireworks". It does seem slightly paradoxical, in Britain's good-idea-gone-mad "health and safety" culture, and with our super-tough gun laws, and despite a certain number of people being mained every year, that the laws on buying fireworks in the UK are as far as I know the same as they were 30 years ago, ie pretty liberal.Harry Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01675794936870568336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-16007637856730003462009-02-02T04:53:00.000+00:002009-02-02T04:53:00.000+00:00I found a survey about what people call the night ...I found a survey about what people call the night before Halloween. Mischief Night is definitely a northeastern thing and Devil's Night seems to be in Michigan and the Northeast.<BR/> <BR/><A HREF="http://www4.uwm.edu/FLL/linguistics/dialect/staticmaps/q_110.html" REL="nofollow">Dialect Survey Results</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-81713893483565409502008-09-20T08:23:00.000+01:002008-09-20T08:23:00.000+01:00An interesting perspective on Halloween; I've not ...An interesting perspective on Halloween; I've not seen it explained that way before - as a celebration of children where you can dress as anything you like. Having grown up in Australia I would have summed up Halloween as basically a celebration of the opportunities that <I>darkness</I> affords to the imagination. Fairies and fortune tellers sound like reasonably traditional constumes to me (after all, they allude to the supernatural), but superheroes, magnets and clowns are a tad liberal for my tastes. I know some people who once came wearing a model bottle of whisky on a necklace, and claimed to be "evil spirits"; that works.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-12651880944870235552008-06-20T05:08:00.000+01:002008-06-20T05:08:00.000+01:00As an American, my favorite holiday is Halloween. ...As an American, my favorite holiday is Halloween. As I explain to my friends, it's an excuse to dress up in costumes, you can eat a lot of candy, and, best of all, no one ever expects you to come home for Halloween!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-88303469266186200192008-02-02T17:44:00.000+00:002008-02-02T17:44:00.000+00:00Where i was in south england we pretty much ahd to...Where i was in south england we pretty much ahd to make our own halloween. There are traditions followed in england like apple bobbing, and we carve pumpkins as well. But anything more than that was pretty much DIY. So what we did for Halloween was what my sister, cousins and i did. if we wanted a haunted house we had to make it ourselves, and then force our parents to go round it because there was no one else who would. <BR/><BR/>Also I spent most Halloweens of my childhood disappointed because after being bought up with American tv shows I didn't understand why we didn't trick or treat here.<BR/><BR/>Although I do know people who do trick or treat properly, but the parents have gone and asked which houses would be willing to participate first.<BR/><BR/>I think the problem is Halloween in England is very much that it is a private holiday and not something public. If you do, do somethings for Halloween you do it yourself not as a community.ria88https://www.blogger.com/profile/03059897581128726128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-19247663770397296742007-12-29T00:08:00.000+00:002007-12-29T00:08:00.000+00:00I love the autumn holidays! Halloween is the cand...I love the autumn holidays! Halloween is the candy holiday, Thanksgiving is the pie holiday, and Christmas is the cookie holiday. What's not to love? <BR/><BR/>Halloween has changed from the trick-or-treating evenning (there was never any ticks) of my youth, to a week or weekend (depending on what day the holiday falls) of costume parties. Costumes are no longer that scary, and if you're a teen they are usually skimpy and provocative. Since parties require props and supplies, it's no wonder that the Halloween Superstores start openning in August and that Halloween has become the second highest grossing retail holiday, second only to Christmas.<BR/><BR/>In New Jersey, "michief night" is the 30th and involves a few minor pranks, if you even get that much. Our town has a Halloween parade and a "haunted house" run by a local charity group, minimizing any mischief the night might otherwise engender. <BR/><BR/>The Wednesday before Thaksgiving is becoming more and more an evenning to gather with friends, particulalry for university students and others travelling "home" for the holiday. In fact, the Wednesday before is one of the highest grossing bar/pub nights of the year! <BR/><BR/>No wonder January is such a let down.Sterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08856854126127258353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-12984112946311924452007-11-13T17:45:00.000+00:002007-11-13T17:45:00.000+00:00Good question, Anon.This is what the OED says:"2. ...Good question, Anon.<BR/><BR/>This is what the OED says:<BR/><BR/>"2. (In early use also more fully <B>fall of the leaf</B>.) That part of the year when leaves fall from the trees; autumn. In N. Amer. the ordinary name for autumn; in England now rare in literary use, though found in some dialects; <B>spring and fall</B>, <B>the fall of the year</B>, are, however, in fairly common use."<BR/><BR/>The examples they have include not particularly poetic uses of <I>fall</I> well into the 19th century in Britain:<BR/><BR/>"1851 CARLYLE Sterling I. xi. (1872) 67 His first child..was born there..in the fall of that year 1831. 1862 MERIVALE Rom. Emp. (1865) VI. xlvii. 38 It was in the fall of the year..that Agrippa sailed for the East."<BR/><BR/>So, yes, it does look like a case in which AmE has carried on using an English term that the English have pretty much abandoned.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9477853173261462842007-11-13T16:23:00.000+00:002007-11-13T16:23:00.000+00:00This seems a good point at which to ask about "fal...This seems a good point at which to ask about "fall". I seem to recall being told , some years ago , that it is a good old English word that the Pilgrims took with them and retained , whilst we Brits let the French "automne" take over for us . Is that right ??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-64199067393159602202007-11-08T22:30:00.000+00:002007-11-08T22:30:00.000+00:00vdybnagoCulture and cultural transfer is something...vdybnagoCulture and cultural transfer is something I think about occasionally (Yes - I know I am weird and sad).<BR/><BR/>The UK often imports ideas from abroad (and America is one of the largest contributors for many reasons)<BR/><BR/>However, we only normally import one part of the custom/idea, and leave the rest behind. Then we get surprised that it doesn't work well. One example was when college tuition fees were introduced - we introduced the fees but forgot to import the concept of part-time HE courses available at every local college and good systems of transferability of academic credit.<BR/><BR/>Of course, many ideas are imported by retailers, who think they can make money out of the introduction. Halloween is a good case in point. The drive for house decorating and Halloween decorations etc are driven by the retailers - particularly (as far as I can see) the supermarkets. Because of that, the introduction does have a commercial aspect to it. <BR/><BR/>That's why many 'American' things get labeled with a commercial tag :)<BR/><BR/>But I'll stop now :P Actually though - I suspect the spread and homogenisation of events/holidays etc - is linked to the same vectors that spreads words from one version of English to another.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-46942759559731265172007-11-08T12:51:00.000+00:002007-11-08T12:51:00.000+00:00johnb--I didn't think you were trying to pick on m...johnb--I didn't think you were trying to pick on me. Just wanted to clarify my meaning, since I hadn't stated it as well as I would have liked to.<BR/><BR/>My complaint about people complaining about Americani{s/z}ation is not that people shouldn't complain about things being Americani{s/z}ed (one has the right to like one's own culture the way it is!) but the fact that they often claim that things that they don't like are American, based on incomplete evidence. Some of the things that people don't like about Halloween are not things that I'd identify as 'American' things. So, the thing I don't like is the assumption that 'if it's something bad/crass/commerical that's come into our culture, then it must be American influence.' <BR/><BR/>And, to be clear, I wasn't saying that you were doing that, johnb! Just clarifying what I meant by my last comment.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-36258592232886937502007-11-08T00:06:00.000+00:002007-11-08T00:06:00.000+00:00boys, (never girls) played conkers in Irish catho...boys, (never girls) played conkers in Irish catholic neighborhoods in the bronx when i was kid.. (circa mid 1950/mid 1960's) <BR/><BR/>and they took huge sticks of chalk, (1 inch by 6 inches) pack 2 or 3 into the toe of sock, and beat the chalk to dust.. <BR/>these chalks sacks were used to knock on doors (when trick or treating) and if you didn't answer, you would get your door covered with chalk.. (pounded and pounded (driving you crazy with the noise if you were home!) som times boys would pound each other too, (and get wicked bruises!)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05396678842259578953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-2593226184954663322007-11-07T23:30:00.000+00:002007-11-07T23:30:00.000+00:00Lynneguist - I know you didn't mean to imply ther...Lynneguist - I know you didn't mean to imply there was no Halloween in Britain before hand :) I wasn't trying to 'pick on' you, everyone writes from the perspective of what they understand and are used to. Cultural immersion and background is just as important in understandings of festivals and celebrations as it is in language use.<BR/><BR/>My wife is just starting to understand some of my reluctance to embrace and American style Halloween - after living here with me for the last five years :) Our kids don't have the cultural baggage that makes Halloween a 'nice' time. :)<BR/><BR/>As for people complaining about 'Americanization' of things - well that's more than reasonable. My wife moans like hell when I try to Anglify Thanks Giving :) Why would anyone value another cultures way of doing it over their own.<BR/><BR/>You also need to remember that for many of us in Britain - Americanisation normally goes hand-in-hand with increased commercialisation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-31281866886415333892007-11-07T22:41:00.000+00:002007-11-07T22:41:00.000+00:00Do other people celebrate Mischief Night?In Detroi...<EM>Do other people celebrate Mischief Night?</EM><BR/><BR/>In Detroit MI the night before Halloween is "Devil's Night." It often veers over into more serious vandalism.<BR/><BR/>It's been several years since I lived around there and caught the newscasts--which of course made a bigger deal about it than it probably deserved.<BR/><BR/>I was quickly annoyed hearing so many breaking news stories start with "Police report that nothing happened on Devil's Night."<BR/><BR/>Yep. And Buckwheat is still dead.Wishydighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06141057866370676641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-15726210067082247702007-11-07T21:24:00.000+00:002007-11-07T21:24:00.000+00:00Well, when I was a kid, you could certainly dress ...Well, when I was a kid, you could certainly dress up as anything you liked. Superman costumes were always popular and I remember dressing up as a lion one year (complete with home-made lion mask).<BR/><BR/>Nowadays it seems almost obligatory to be dressed up as something scary, but I had put that down to movie-industry-led Americanization of Halloween myself!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-68379521042535435082007-11-07T20:39:00.000+00:002007-11-07T20:39:00.000+00:00Didn't mean to imply that there was no such thing ...Didn't mean to imply that there was no such thing as Halloween in England before recent years (though I can see that I was not careful enough in expressing that), but that the modern American festival is more based on some Scottish/Irish traditions involving giving people treats of various sorts, and that what people are complaining about in Halloween these days is their perception of the "Americani{s/z}ation" of it. The problem, as the discussion so far would have it, is that something is lost in the translation--that American-style Halloween has not been imported, but that trick-or-treating of a kind has been stuck onto existing English notions of Halloween. And then people blame the 'badness' on 'the American ways'--much as some people like to (try to) do (but they won't usually get away with it around here!) with grammar...lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-41330942151815511342007-11-07T20:28:00.000+00:002007-11-07T20:28:00.000+00:00I’ve been mulling over Halloween for a couple of d...I’ve been mulling over Halloween for a couple of days now. Soemthing didn’t feel right about the various comments to me, but I think part of Lynne’s original comment sums it up.<BR/><BR/>“Then there's Halloween, which has roots going back to Scotland and Ireland (particularly the Scottish tradition of guising), but whose modern form is a recent import from the US to the UK”<BR/><BR/>That implies, to me, that Britain didn’t really have Halloween before we started to adopt American customs But that’s not true - we have had a very developed Halloween tradition in Britain. It is a time of ghosts and waking dead and scary things. And it has stayed that way. It’s a time to tell ghost stories and (for youngsters) to try to scare your mates (and anyone else whop gets involved). Traditionally, it isn’t a time for really young children.<BR/><BR/>Halloween dressing up (in Britain) is expected to stick to the ghosties and goulies line - because Halloween is all about scary stuff. We had a halloween fancy dress contest in the pub where I run quizzes. Every one who dressed up chose a scary theme. The same is true of the other dress-up events I have seen in pubs and bars recently.<BR/><BR/>It’s the same as trick or treating – the American’s on here all share a common understanding of ‘trick or treat’ – you all understand that it’s a gentle activity divorced from the scary stuff. In Britain we don’t. We hear the words - ‘trick OR treat’ with out any cultural background. We here give us a treat or we will play a trick on you. Give us something good or we will do something bad to you. Basically – extortion.<BR/><BR/>And many of out teenagers will see it like that. When my son was in his early teens he wanted to go trick or treating – he wanted really scary masks, and he was going to conceal his ID etc I hooded clothes - he WANTED to scare people. All his mates wanted to go with him as well.<BR/><BR/>Part of the reaso0n they don’t share the American view of ‘trick or treat’ is that they haven’t grown up with it. So they make their own assumptions.<BR/><BR/>Halloween here has traditionally been a low key event, but it has been celebrated for many a long year. Personally, I would be more than happy with Halloween staying a low status festival, if it would spare us all the black and orange tat that’s been in the shops recently.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com