tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post6911027680603006196..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: goatee (beard)lynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-73457093020658130182020-08-14T17:43:30.507+01:002020-08-14T17:43:30.507+01:00BrE (Scot, 60+) To my ears, Americans often sound...BrE (Scot, 60+) To my ears, Americans often sound words with near equal stress on all syllables, which I find a little jarring. The example that always comes to mind is marathon. So I’m very surprised to find that, as I hear myself at least, goatee and Heathrow are words with both syllables stressed equally. And also PRINcess, but PRIN - CESS Di.Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-34104936272484523262019-01-01T08:33:51.126+00:002019-01-01T08:33:51.126+00:00You are all missing the point! It's a beard si...You are all missing the point! It's a beard similar the that of a goat, therefore a'goaty'beard.. Similar to a 'fishy' smell. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11872109971938563088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-79908756106567452352009-09-18T09:35:13.027+01:002009-09-18T09:35:13.027+01:00Dominic - I think in polite society that's com...Dominic - I think in polite society that's commonly known as a soul patch. The term 'flavour saver' is in common use in the UK, but has rather coarser connotations than you describe - the same type of beard is also occasionally referred to as a 'lady pleaser'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-51773217904805110632009-09-18T08:39:26.525+01:002009-09-18T08:39:26.525+01:00What about the "even smaller than a goatee&qu...What about the "even smaller than a goatee" patch of hair below the bottom lip and above the bottom of the chin? Jazz tuft? In typically illustrative Australian slang, known as a "Flavour Saver" in apparent reference to their ability to collect sundry bits of food & drink.<br /><br />Oh, and I would pronounce Goatee with almost equal stress on both syllables, just slightly favouring the lastDominichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15771846898314837713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-30798829147719911772009-09-17T08:56:26.304+01:002009-09-17T08:56:26.304+01:00and then there are those philistines who say goate...and then there are those philistines who say goatee when the meant Van Dyk. Shameful!!!<br /><br />PerryPerryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11978099909417510217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-74554986995638694542009-09-16T15:47:11.636+01:002009-09-16T15:47:11.636+01:00What we now call a goatee used to be called a Van ...What we now call a goatee used to be called a Van Dyke beard, also known as (I now learn) a circle beard.Harry Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01675794936870568336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-175560839253978742009-09-16T15:42:32.620+01:002009-09-16T15:42:32.620+01:00Strictly speaking no, a goatee is not "the mu...Strictly speaking no, a goatee is not "the mustache and chin hair without the jawline whiskers". It means what it says, the kind of beard a goat has, just a little tuft hanging down from under the chin. However, the original sense of the word seems to have died out along with what it refers to, and it's now universally used as Zhoen describes. In a way this seems a pity since it deprives us of a name for that very specific type of beard; but by the same token it's something we very rarely need to refer to.<br />None of which has anything to do with British/American differences I suppose.Harry Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01675794936870568336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-77157763380517533002009-09-16T08:53:28.730+01:002009-09-16T08:53:28.730+01:00I've never heard "goatee" pronounced...I've never heard "goatee" pronounced any way other than "GOA-tee". (Incidentally, for phonetic reasons I think it's more natural to place the syllable break before the 't'.)<br /><br />As for "goatee beard", there is some debate over whether a goatee includes a moustache or not (<a href="http://thistlehaven.net/J3/FacialHairStyles.htm" rel="nofollow">here is a site</a> that maintains it does not), and I would interpret "goatee beard" as being a less ambiguous way to specify a goatee without a moustache. (Which just so happens to describe my own beard.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-79590011784415935712009-09-15T23:54:23.710+01:002009-09-15T23:54:23.710+01:00@Lynneguist: Maybe it's just because he's ...@Lynneguist: Maybe it's just because he's an affable sort of chap and therefore can't possibly be a goateed man as that would disrupt the balance of the universe.<br /><br />@that last Anonymous: I thought we'd already established that, but if you're interested- I'm English so I stress the first syllable and soften the 't'.<br /><br />I also realise I didn't exactly make my point in my previous comment. When I was describing current fashions in facial hair, what I was getting at was that I would just say 'beard' or maybe 'a little beard' for all of them, rather than describing them as goatees.Solonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-81425435328957241932009-09-15T21:24:36.513+01:002009-09-15T21:24:36.513+01:00@Solo: your perception of BH's facial hair as ...@Solo: your perception of BH's facial hair as not a goatee is probably due to the fact that he is something of a slob when it comes to shaving. When he shaves, it's just m(o)ustache and chin.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-85853667673370883952009-09-15T15:30:11.383+01:002009-09-15T15:30:11.383+01:00I'm an American from the midwest, and definite...I'm an American from the midwest, and definitely TenneSSEE but TENessee Williams, and BerLIN, but BERlin Wall.<br /><br />Solo, you're comment about how to pronounce goatee doesn't address the issue under discussion: Which syllable is stressed.<br /><br />General thought on Goatee. Stressing the first syllable I think would sound odder in AmE than in BrE because of losing the T sound.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-47041793511102621252009-09-15T11:43:19.190+01:002009-09-15T11:43:19.190+01:00Even without the 'London', when I say '...Even without the 'London', when I say 'Heathrow' I stress both syllables, almost as if they were two separate words.<br /><br />I think David Brent was the first nail in the coffin for the goatee. How does a style of facial hair come back from something like that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-53195730918980407512009-09-15T10:05:43.695+01:002009-09-15T10:05:43.695+01:00I think English people have always said HEATHrow, ...I think English people have always said HEATHrow, with the stress on the first syllable - and, indeed, maybe there is a touch of iambic reversal here when we refer to the airport by its currently correct name of "London Heathrow", which comes out slightly (but only slightly) as "LONdon HeathROW". Or possibly with equal stress on all four syllable.Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-32111774337348696412009-09-15T07:45:49.075+01:002009-09-15T07:45:49.075+01:00I have to agree with the previous anonymous poster...I have to agree with the previous anonymous poster. There doesn't seem to be any difference in stress when I say Tennessee versus Tennessee Williams nor with Berlin versus Berlin Wall.Some American Guynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-15436922482285684102009-09-15T05:37:12.588+01:002009-09-15T05:37:12.588+01:00Coming late to the party with a semi-relevant comm...Coming late to the party with a semi-relevant comment:<br /><br />I wouldn't really describe BH's topiary as a goatee myself, Lynneguist. Maybe it's because people my age generally only have partial beards when at all and the little jawline thing that these pop boys and rappers are so fond of doesn't fit the description either. Anyway, to me a goatee [pronounced exactly as it's spelt: goat-ee] is a little pointy bit just on the chin (not jawline) and is a compund phrase, as in 'You know -the guy with the little goatee.'<br /><br />And I don't trust men who have them. I especially don't trust a man with a moustache, which is both unsightly and unsanitary. The moustache that is. Although by extension quite possibly the man.Solonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-70649513957156091202009-09-15T04:48:18.183+01:002009-09-15T04:48:18.183+01:00Not to rain on Herr Doktor's parade, but I don...Not to rain on Herr Doktor's parade, but I don't follow either of his examples of iambic reversal.<br /><br />I still say TennessEE (not TENnessee) WILliams and I say BerLIN (not BERlin) WALL. <br /><br />And I'm American from SoCal. Maybe it's regional.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-3777269325177082342009-09-15T00:27:21.879+01:002009-09-15T00:27:21.879+01:00With respect to "tuna fish", I always us...With respect to "tuna fish", I always use this phrase to refer to chopped tuna mixed with crushed hard-boiled eggs and mayonnaise. Swimming in the ocean it's just a tuna and served in non-chopped form it's tuna steak.Joenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-60821109905302878702009-09-14T22:44:55.735+01:002009-09-14T22:44:55.735+01:00Danke, Herr Doktor!Danke, Herr Doktor!lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-82519040382149963492009-09-14T22:25:58.243+01:002009-09-14T22:25:58.243+01:00Re: Max vs Lynneguist:
the "iambic reversal&...Re: Max vs Lynneguist: <br />the "iambic reversal" phenomenon (move the stress to the front in a word that would be stressed at the end if it is followed by a word stressed at the beginning, in other words: move the stress to avoid a clash of two stressed syllables) is also found in AmE. Think TennessEE but TENnessee WILliams or BerLIN but BERlin WALL. The interesting thing, though, is that it's not as straightforward as the English pronunciation guides would have it; there are quite a few exceptions, and there is also disagreement between speakers (your balLET SHOES for example). As far as I know, there are no studies that have looked at this in greater detail (note to self …).<br /><br />Re Cameron and the GOAtee pronunciation: It is possible that once the second word of a compound is dropped (here: beard) that the reversed stress pattern is maintained because people no longer are aware of the original pattern. A good example is London's largest airport, Heathrow, which almost everybody nowadays pronounces HEATHrow (including Londoners). It used to be HeathROW but iambic reversal occurred in HEATHrow AIRport. After dropping the pleonastic airport (after all, there's nothing else there), stress remained fixed on the first syllable. So maybe ScE GOAtee is a consequence of dropping the pleonastic beard after iambic reversal …Herr Doktor Phonologistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-89916673009740399672009-09-14T15:45:29.843+01:002009-09-14T15:45:29.843+01:00AmE; upstate New York
definitely bal-LET SHOES. An...AmE; upstate New York<br />definitely bal-LET SHOES. And PRIN-cess.<br /><br />Also, mynah bird is OK. Tuna fish is OK, but probably refers to that product in a can.<br /><br />In upstate NY, we refer to NYC as "the City". We know, though, that some folks in other parts of the country think New York City IS New York State, which makes us upstaters rather peevish.Roger Owen Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05298172138307632062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-6129589311938590322009-09-14T11:18:45.296+01:002009-09-14T11:18:45.296+01:00@townmouse: She has said it since--but she will qu...@townmouse: She has said it since--but she will qualify it. E.g. "I don't usually trust a man with a goatee..." It must be said that BH keeps his so untidy that he doesn't fall into the stereotype of a man who's uncommonly vain.<br /><br />@biochemist: The m(o)ustache pronunciation difference was mentioned <a href="http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2006/08/pronouncing-french-words-and-names.html" rel="nofollow">two posts ago</a> when we were doing French loanwords. So, that's part of a general pattern.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-70802059395107065202009-09-14T11:01:41.090+01:002009-09-14T11:01:41.090+01:00Coming back to the original post, I'm curious ...Coming back to the original post, I'm curious now - does your mother <i>still</i> say 'never trust a man with a goatee' now that you've married one?townmousehttp://cityexile.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-20387624625626274222009-09-14T10:30:27.819+01:002009-09-14T10:30:27.819+01:00And reading back through the comments, I note that...And reading back through the comments, I note that AmE and BrE spelling and pronunciation both differ on the upper lip:<br /><br />AmE mustache, MUSS-tash<br />BrE moustache, m'starshbiochemistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-22557148106207773332009-09-14T10:21:49.830+01:002009-09-14T10:21:49.830+01:00Thanks Lisa, what a super story! It's interest...Thanks Lisa, what a super story! It's interesting that the RAF officer looks more like Tom Selleck than (my mental image of)Biggles, however.<br /><br />I am sure that some of the 'beware of men with a goatee' suspicion derives from (and is reinforced by) books and movies that use facial hair as a character sketch - Poirot's moustache displays vanity and attention to detail and is slightly ridiculous, while gangsters in modern cop shows and the goatee-d baddy in the French Connection are identified by their facial hair. Macho, meticulous, but threatening.biochemistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-55364396183305259792009-09-13T22:40:07.583+01:002009-09-13T22:40:07.583+01:00biochemist,
RAF officers are indeed still allowed...biochemist,<br /><br />RAF officers are indeed still allowed moustaches, including handlebars. In fact, there was a <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/2119950/RAF-pilot-refuses-US-order-to-trim-moustache.html" rel="nofollow">story in the press</a> a couple of years ago about an RAF officer who was on secondment with an American squadron in Afghanistan and was ordered to trim his handlebar to meet USAF regulations. He refused and was eventually allowed to keep it.Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12108790298190157853noreply@blogger.com