tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post7222446020637998008..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: thenlynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-42976669710453775862016-11-20T13:18:47.228+00:002016-11-20T13:18:47.228+00:00I suggest that these non-AmE thens are essentially...I suggest that these non-AmE <i>thens</i> are essentially inferential, but not so much drawing <b>logical</b> inferences as <b><i>taking it onto one's own agenda</i></b>. Thus<br /><br /><i>If you write to them and drop it in that's fine then .</i><br />'Your (hypothetical) wish accords with what suits me.'<br /><br /><i>Let's let's get straight what we are talking about then.</i><br />'Let's change from just you knowing what you mean to me knowing as well.'<br /><br /><i>So that is it then .</i><br />'Now I know.'<br /><br />These need not be as egotistical as I've made them sound. My agenda <b>can</b> be our shared agenda.<br /><br /><i>Go on then</i><br />'Make it part of my experience' <br />(from being <br />1 Aunty June's nephew's/niece's boast<br />2 a taste known only to the other speaker)<br /><br /><i>What pub is that then ?<br />So What about this then ?</i><br />'Make it part of my knowledge.' (from being just yours)<br /><br />The <b>Happy Go Lucky</b> example is clearly non-egotistical<br /><br /><i>- How was your weekend?<br />- Crap.<br />- Oh, no, why's that, then?</i><br />'Share it with me.' (because I think it will help you)<br /><br />Some uses of <i>now</i> do a similar interactive job, I suggest, but in a more adbversarial way. It's a sort-of challenge to the exclusivity of the other speaker's agenda.<br /><br /><i>Now why did you do that?</i><br />'Don't keep your motivation secret. I want to know about it too.'<br /><br />If I'm right, the greeting <i>Now then</i> may amount to <br />'Don't keep your motivation to yourself. I want to know for my own reasons.'<br /><br />KeithD<br /><br />In a different tone of voice, Lord Melchett would be in effect saying 'Forget your agenda. This is mine.'David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-72295997149951023132016-11-18T23:05:19.503+00:002016-11-18T23:05:19.503+00:00In all Lynne's examples, "then" seem...In all Lynne's examples, "then" seems to have but two meanings rather then the multiple finer shades of meaning inferred: to express finality (the first three) and (as mentioned by Andy JS) to encourage the person spoken to (all the rest). A further use of terminal then is the standard meaning of 'in that case', as in Boris's example of Hugh Grants's 'So I can't kill you then'.<br /><br />In the admonitory expression "Now, then" (Lord Melchett's usage, not Jimmy Saville's), and the similarly employed "Now, now", the "now" is also clearly not temporal, and these seem to be phrases that have developed a specialised meaning through some indiscernible process.KeithDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10451059429340892054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-72975368193170341712014-03-22T03:34:02.578+00:002014-03-22T03:34:02.578+00:00In German I think of 'oder' at the end of ...In German I think of 'oder' at the end of a sentence but that is almost inviting opinion. <br /><br />In my BrE experience I agree with others that " come on then" is effectively a softened imperative & slightly impatient so very similar to AmE usage. <br /><br />"go on then" is almost resigned, as in final, almost the same as saying "now then" before making a comment. I have a work colleague who pretty much starts all queries to me (i'm his senior in the firm) with "right!".<br /><br />As already noted the Welsh love "then" as a general rule which does not seem limited by age so I wonder if it is very old usage or that the Welsh way worked it's may into mainstream BrE. My Welsh granny as well as my cousins will often say things like "Aw that's lovely then" or "that's tidy then" but the valleys people also do say "i'll be there now in a minute" so please don't be looking at this for grammar!!<br /><br />As to Westcountry use of to at the end of a sentence this is rather deep Westcountry as here in Wiltshire you will hardly ever hear it as it is redundant. I work in Bristol & you often hear "where are you going to?" Rather than just "where are you going?" <br /><br />Also the curious Bristol way of not finishing sentences as in "Where you to?" Or "where you at?" Makes me think of the AmE " can I come with?"Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10830320891404684967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-81583884230018412142011-05-26T23:28:24.950+01:002011-05-26T23:28:24.950+01:00Also I would say "now then" conveys the ...Also I would say "now then" conveys the same meaning as:<br />-alright/okay (after a task is finished indicating the question to oneself "what next?")<br />-so...<br />-let's see<br />and in other languages:<br />-bueno (spanish)<br />-a ver (spanish)<br />-alors (french)<br />-eh bien (french)<br />-soo desune (japanese)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-81282462260798555282011-05-26T23:09:30.473+01:002011-05-26T23:09:30.473+01:00Similar curiosity arrives with the usage of "...Similar curiosity arrives with the usage of "now" at the end of a sentence in AmE as well as BrE. It is difficult to explain the difference between "don't eat that" and "don't eat that, now." I think the latter sounds a bit reassuring and more gentle and maybe even with an implied reasoning behind it. Eg. Don't eat that, now (since it is undercooked and could give you a belly ache). Of course it differs from the temporal usage: "don't eat that (right) now."<br /><br />If this has already been addressed feel free to let me know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-38459522435176442642010-11-10T10:01:50.438+00:002010-11-10T10:01:50.438+00:00Hi, I'm a newcomer to your blog – great articl...Hi, I'm a newcomer to your blog – great articles.<br /><br />This one in particular made me smile... it's funny how you don't always notice things like this until they're pointed out to you. (Similarly, I was never really aware of how "up and down" BrE intonation can be (even within a single sentence) until my (French) partner started gently mocking me for it.)<br /><br />Glad someone mentioned Sir Jimmy Savile, by the way. How's about that, then, guys and gals!Herbaltablethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13692179993379134286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-76291878423748880282010-08-22T23:10:47.176+01:002010-08-22T23:10:47.176+01:00The anonymous commenter who pointed out that in Ge...The anonymous commenter who pointed out that in German <i>denn</i> adds emphasis made me realis(z)e that there's a similar effect with <i>donc</i> in French (which also more generally connotes 'therefore'). The person who asks 'Qu'est-ce que c'est, donc?' is perhaps slightly more puzzled that somebody who asks without!<br /><br />As a native Brit (now American), I've never understood the dangling 'then' to suggest impatience - just a conversational emphasis as in French and German, or the informal encouragement suggested by other commenters.Kevin Morrisonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-87445627335535561082010-08-21T22:12:52.491+01:002010-08-21T22:12:52.491+01:00Before my moving to the US many years ago, I lived...Before my moving to the US many years ago, I lived in Lancashire, where the phrase "now then" became "na'then" and was used basically as an interjection or simply to hold the conversational floor. In this sense, it follows the OED's gloss of meaning something along the lines of "that being the case" or "since that is so."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-86926276028484515872010-08-20T15:27:20.501+01:002010-08-20T15:27:20.501+01:00Good examples, thanks for sharingGood examples, thanks for sharingannahttp://www.chichesterlanguagecollege.co.uk/general-english-lessons.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-54122561873899641222010-08-20T15:23:47.276+01:002010-08-20T15:23:47.276+01:00Ampersand: I was just thinking that. "Then&qu...Ampersand: I was just thinking that. "Then" is a major component of baby (and pet) talk, especially when the talk is in question form.<br /><br />Does he want din-dins, then? Did you go potty all by yourself, then? Who's a clever boy, then!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-69968463050187829932010-08-19T17:31:59.996+01:002010-08-19T17:31:59.996+01:00I can't believe no one has yet mentioned Jimmy...I can't believe no one has yet mentioned Jimmy Saville, with his ridiculous and much-imitated catchphrase, 'Now then, now then, now then!'Roshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02669423378438380019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-46039710774512186422010-08-18T19:15:02.354+01:002010-08-18T19:15:02.354+01:00Is it just me, but isn't "Who's a cle...Is it just me, but isn't "Who's a clever boy, then" what you stereotypically say to pet birds to make them talk?<br /><br />As Lynneguist way have noticed, down here in Sussex the dialect has a non-diminuitive use of the word "boy" to mean (at least) any man (I know a "boi" in Lewes who is in his 80's). However using "boy" to a human in any other context feels very dodgy respect-wise to me.Ampersandnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-42984619865514615282010-08-18T18:19:26.609+01:002010-08-18T18:19:26.609+01:00@Martin Ball: Itself often followed by Then if I r...@Martin Ball: Itself often followed by Then if I recal. "So where's that to then?"<br /><br />Things get even more strange in Swansea (my home town, though I live int he US now): "So where's that to then? Near like then is it? Lovely then." And so forth.HarlequiNQBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14628673686836043178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-15623101741877127772010-08-18T16:18:42.294+01:002010-08-18T16:18:42.294+01:00I used to have a teacher at school (here in the UK...I used to have a teacher at school (here in the UK) who had a habit of adding "then" to the end of nearly every sentence which involved telling the pupils / students to do something. It was as if he was using the word as an extra encouragement to do whatever it was we were doing. It wasn't said in an impatient way most of the time, although the interesting thing is that it could be used in an impatient sense sometimes as well (like it would be normally in the US), which you could tell by the tone of voice used.Andy JShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15819413906544791899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-72520423360562025242010-08-18T10:15:15.293+01:002010-08-18T10:15:15.293+01:00I take requests for blog topics by email, and, for...I take requests for blog topics by email, and, for the sake of usability of the blog. My comments policy is <a href="http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2006/07/comments-policy.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-56613106914117890322010-08-18T02:15:53.093+01:002010-08-18T02:15:53.093+01:00@most anon (er, why not add your name?)
This is co...@most anon (er, why not add your name?)<br />This is common in Cardiff and south Wales. Example: "where's your car parked to?" (You need to able to hear the famous Cardiff long-a [æː] to really appreciate this!)Martin Ballnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-66169510908982438722010-08-18T01:21:34.948+01:002010-08-18T01:21:34.948+01:00@Lynneguist
As the most recent anonymous (sorry), ...@Lynneguist<br />As the most recent anonymous (sorry), I wonder if the westcountry "to" is something you've covered already, or might cover in future? I see from a quick Google that it's also, apparently,common to Newfoundland English, but it confuses the meaning of a sentence beyond belief to anyone who isn't expecting it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-66909897813871877042010-08-17T18:16:02.726+01:002010-08-17T18:16:02.726+01:00@most recent anonymous: No, that's completely ...@most recent anonymous: No, that's completely unrelated to this.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-47790791075242652062010-08-17T14:58:04.595+01:002010-08-17T14:58:04.595+01:00No-one's mentioned the almost obligatory '...No-one's mentioned the almost obligatory 'then' at the end of service encounters in Britain when the checkout person states the amount to be paid:<br />"That'll be three pounds 47, then"<br /><br />We also notice that we address our cat in terms such as "Who's a good moggy, then?"Martin Ballnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-44758318733478285742010-08-17T12:51:55.910+01:002010-08-17T12:51:55.910+01:00Does this relate in any way to the BrE westcountry...Does this relate in any way to the BrE westcountry idiom which ends a question relating to location with the word "to"?<br /><br />For example, a conversation might run:<br />"I'm from Tavistock"<br />"Oh, where's that to?"<br /><br />Early in my time at university I typed out an essay on a typewriter hidden away in a backroom of the college building and a Devonian fellow student completely baffled me by asking, "where did you do that to?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-27363345214472893962010-08-17T04:45:49.778+01:002010-08-17T04:45:49.778+01:00There is a great example of this from Blackadder 4...There is a great example of this from Blackadder 4 : With Hugh Laurie and Stephen Fry. I have included the Youtube link<br /><br />Gen. Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett: Now then, then now, now then, then, then, then now.<br />[pause]<br />Gen. Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett: Now then, what's all the fuss about? <br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ8siBb14RE<br /><br />Oliver in beautiful Quebec CityOliver Maynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-28061260514748988442010-08-17T01:10:25.772+01:002010-08-17T01:10:25.772+01:00Sorry mollymooly, I didn't mean to come across...Sorry mollymooly, I didn't mean to come across as directly addressing your point. It was just a coincidence of timing. The Irish terminal "so" is a distinct (if closely related) phenomenon.Ginger Yellowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06103410278129312943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-82776517579902093872010-08-16T22:41:58.851+01:002010-08-16T22:41:58.851+01:00@Ambulant: I think you've got it mostly right,...@Ambulant: I think you've got it mostly right, but I'd pause at the word 'deliberate', which seems to imply 'thought out'. People act the way they do because they've been conditioned to do so, rather than because they've reasoned their way into it.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-81760396808751036852010-08-16T21:25:52.601+01:002010-08-16T21:25:52.601+01:00My own impression is that BrE idiom often function...My own impression is that BrE idiom often functions through deliberate obliqueness and non-specificity, the goal of which is to establish fellow-feeling between speakers on the basis that they are able to reach a clear mutual understanding without having to resort to discussing something explicitly.<br /><br />On this basis wonder if this particular BrE usage of 'then' is a way of explicitly expressing an established friendly context for an observation or suggestion, and making it as non-confrontational as possible. Effectively the speaker is referring obliquely to a previous event (or to a generic placeholder for a previous event) that establishes a shared context for the other things he or she is saying.<br /><br />So 'come on!' moves from being a straight imperative to being a suggestion which implies prior assent, or even that one's interlocutor made the suggestion in the first place: 'Come on, then!'<br /><br />Similarly, 'go on then' implies a compromise being made because of the closeness of a relationship: 'well, I wouldn't normally, but since it's you.' This is also often part of an ostentatious display of feigned politeness: 'well, although it is unforgivably rude to eat the last piece of chocolate cake, you and I are such good friends that for your sake I will sacrifice my own propriety.' Or perhaps 'well, although obviously I am normally abstemious and would never drink more than one pint, you and I are such good friends that it would be rude and churlish of me to refuse your hospitality.' The fact that the sense of these statements is also ironic, because of course both speakers know that chocolate cake and pints are foolish things to refuse, amplifies the implied sense of friendship because you are both also in on a joke.<br /><br />Or perhaps I'm reading far too much into this!Ambulantnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-5813950940983252322010-08-16T21:00:40.415+01:002010-08-16T21:00:40.415+01:00@Ginger: the Irish usage I'm thinking of is fi...@Ginger: the Irish usage I'm thinking of is final "so"; though initial "so" is of course possible. A catchphrase of my mother's is "so now so".mollymoolynoreply@blogger.com