tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post7581670949882165378..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: language play--not getting itlynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-35978200130843133532019-04-23T13:36:08.257+01:002019-04-23T13:36:08.257+01:00BrE, Scot, mid 60s. This is more Scots cf English ...BrE, Scot, mid 60s. This is more Scots cf English than AmE cf BrE, but sort of on topic. In the (English) south east, the word drawer is pronounced draw, and often spelled that way, which does have a certain logic. However, in the handwritten ads in newsagents windows, people often try to sell “Chester draws”, meaning “chest of drawers”. I have often tried to use this phrase, in exactly the same spirit as Lynne’s “ya done good”. In a very rhotic Scots accent, it just doesn't work.Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-30751321862407066522016-07-13T11:27:47.272+01:002016-07-13T11:27:47.272+01:00Is anybody else reading this old thread for the fi...Is anybody else reading this old thread for the first time? Given that possibility, I'd like to comment on flatlands reaction to the language of <i>A Clockwork Orange</i>.<br /><br />The impression of an alien dialect was deliberately crafted. Burgess was also, I think, reflecting on how dialects can be <b>permeable</b>. I suspect he's been thinking about the way American dialect words could enter the dialect of a sub-culture where American popular culture was especially influential, even dominant.<br /><br />But he wanted something stranger for the slang — which he named <b><i>nadsat</i></b> — of a violent youth culture in his imagined society. So he imagined a world where for some reason the cultural influence on the sub-group was not America but Russia.<br /><br /><i>Nadsat</i> is the Russian suffix meaning '-teen', and all those strange slang words are based on Russian. Indeed, the ones which come to mind are simply anglicised versions of ordinary Russian words such as <i>droog = друг</i> 'friend', <i>horrorshow = хорошо</i> 'excellent'.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-42316196750638980862016-07-11T04:56:02.334+01:002016-07-11T04:56:02.334+01:00To safcforme: the various dialects of English spok...To safcforme: the various dialects of English spoken in Great Brtiain are broadly categorized as British English - just as those of Spanish in Spain are called European Spanish. It is useful to differentiate between British and American English dialects, because there are a few traits they generally share. And before you try to claim that British English is the original, remember that when the Americans left we all spoke the same way, and afterwards we both diverted from the source.Sean Fearnleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15511353147572935011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-23953913400344229192014-07-12T19:02:02.868+01:002014-07-12T19:02:02.868+01:00We can't even have our own language now! To us...We can't even have our own language now! To us it's simply, English. Why Americans insist on calling it 'British English' annoys me greatly.<br />We're only a small island so it's no wonder we all speak the same language, that doesn't mean WE have to differentiate it by calling british english. No! it's English... PERIOD lolsafcformehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09397479790475846300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-61612506406146550452012-09-29T19:58:26.074+01:002012-09-29T19:58:26.074+01:00Sometimes in my own speech, I'll adopt a word ...Sometimes in my own speech, I'll adopt a word or phrase that's normally outside of my register in order to convey a certain feeling with it. I have a hunch that the subtext would not always be readily understood by someone who wasn't American. Some examples:<br /><br />If I call someone 'girl,' I'm usually adding a bit of sass. I might say 'Girl, you fine!' to emphasize in a playful way that a woman looks sexy [note: this is not probably acceptable for a guy to say, unless it's to his wife or girlfriend.] Or if I say, "You go, girl!" then I'm adding a bit of feistiness to my encouragement. Because I'm pulling on African American Vernacular English, I don't know if that subtext would be understood by a non-American. <br /><br />In my dialect of AmE, the verb 'to learn' can't take a person as a direct object. In certain regional dialects, however, it can. If I adopt that and say something like, "I'm gonna learn him. I'm gonna learn him reeal good," then I mean I'm going to teach him a lesson, probably involving violence. I get the mental image of a rural white man with a belt or a club or something. The adoption of the different register also means I'm joking and don't really mean it.<br /><br />On the other end of the class spectrum, if I use 'an' in front of a noun that begins with an 'h' (an history, for example), I give off an aura of pretentiousness. Is that something a Brit would pick up on? I don't know.Irenenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-91195008738829015192011-08-03T04:36:40.233+01:002011-08-03T04:36:40.233+01:00To Bill (Months and months later): The comedian is...To Bill (Months and months later): The comedian is Gallagher, who's from Florida. It's part of this bit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDFQXxWIyvQMister Bixbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12357828045138609270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-27546590740931771232011-07-21T03:56:48.721+01:002011-07-21T03:56:48.721+01:00Thing is, with US accents, we are often making fun...Thing is, with US accents, we are often making fun of each other, and the Br/E folks think we all talk the same way. So, if I mix in a Texas drawl y'all, a L00siana slur, a Valleygirl gag, a bit of Minnesotan donchaknow, and round off with a Boston allset, wickedpisser, that poor Brit is going to be downright con-fuuused. <br /><br />But then, he's just said Hooston, instead of Hyouston, so I'm thinking he's pretty slow anyways. <br /><br />(How's that for on topic?)Zhoenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03515663141425057088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-8691669042854384622009-01-27T12:20:00.000+00:002009-01-27T12:20:00.000+00:00The debate on the word "poem" (one syllable or two...The debate on the word "poem" (one syllable or two) and different UK regional dialects reminds me of the old joke about the London women who dropped into a Newcastle hairdressers while on holiday to get a "perm". <BR/>"Can I have a perm here," she asked.<BR/>"Certainly maam, how about 'I wandered lonely as a clood...."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-88142934553393364702008-07-19T01:12:00.000+01:002008-07-19T01:12:00.000+01:00I realise this is months later, but just now I was...I realise this is months later, but just now I was relating a story that happened a few years ago. <BR/><BR/>I'm an American expat in the UK and a few years ago I was at a conference by the sea. Some other conference goers invited me to go paddling. I had no intention of going paddling, but went along where I learned that paddling meant wading in the water, not paddling a small boat w/ an oar.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-3699752547941285882008-04-28T11:01:00.000+01:002008-04-28T11:01:00.000+01:00Yes, I've heard/seen innit used with the proverbia...Yes, I've heard/seen <I>innit</I> used with the proverbial nod and wink--not just to indicate class, but also 'youf' (which is used with a nod/wink to mean 'youth').lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-13273470429102302682008-04-28T00:46:00.000+01:002008-04-28T00:46:00.000+01:00My better half and I (both AmE) spend too much tim...My better half and I (both AmE) spend too much time reading blogs and have encountered "innit" written by BrEs at the end of their sentences. We understand it's slang for "isn't it", but my SO thinks it's just casual BrE, but I believe it's possibly a sarcastic nod against the lower socio-economic group called chavs. Any thoughts?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-60732840614290688522008-04-25T22:07:00.000+01:002008-04-25T22:07:00.000+01:00It's not *quite* the same thing because I don't kn...It's not *quite* the same thing because I don't know what the "right" answer is, but often if I'm watching a show made in the UK, and someone uses language in a non-standard way that gets laughs, I can't quite figure out where the joke is. I might be able to tell that they're putting on an accent that's not their usual one. But a phrase that's unfamiliar to me could be indicative of someone from wherever the accent's from, OR it's a class indicator consistent with the accent, OR it could be that the phrase is completely at odds with the accent, and that's why it's funny. <BR/><BR/>Of course I can't think of an example right now, but I suppose it'd be similar to saying "Howdy y'all" (non-USians: that's a Southern US thing) in a Southern accent, or in my generic Northeastern accent. The first might be funny because it's playing into the stereotype (that's a bit too harsh of a word for what I'm talking about, but you get the idea). Meanwhile, the second could be funny by subverting the expectation. <BR/><BR/>Usually it's funny to an American ear just because it's an odd phrase, but I can usually tell there's a bit of something missing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-7183649280738203932008-04-25T17:31:00.000+01:002008-04-25T17:31:00.000+01:00Lynne,Thank you (and Better Half) so much! That an...Lynne,<BR/><BR/>Thank you (and Better Half) so much! That answers something that has puzzled me since the late 1960s.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-16623746047918108192008-04-25T15:36:00.000+01:002008-04-25T15:36:00.000+01:00When I (AmE) saw A Clockwork Orange I didn't under...When I (AmE) saw <I>A Clockwork Orange</I> I didn't understand half the dialogue and chalked it up to accent and dialect. Later I learned that a great deal of the main character's vocabulary was made up by Anthony Burgess for effect. Don't know how much of the slang made its way into everyday usage.flatlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14711270206823934186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-28659045159128987372008-04-25T10:57:00.000+01:002008-04-25T10:57:00.000+01:00Just asked Better Half, who produces audio literat...Just asked Better Half, who produces audio literature guides for students and therefore knows about such stuff, and he says it's said by someone who is mocking Piggy's pronunciation. So, it's there to indicate a regional or class difference (BH remembers Piggy as being from Derby) that's being mocked. When BH says the line, it's with a very long final vowel with an 'r'-ish quality. So, presumably the boys mocking him speak with a posher accent with a shorter vowel there.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-79835732372919478532008-04-25T08:14:00.000+01:002008-04-25T08:14:00.000+01:00Lynne,Thanks very much! I'm sure you know a lot mo...Lynne,<BR/><BR/>Thanks very much! I'm sure you know a lot more about it than I do, but I have a question about the intrusive R: I've heard it, and the Wikipedia article discusses it, in the context of a word ending in a vowel (such as a schwa) followed by a word beginning with a vowel. <BR/><BR/>But in "Lord of the Flies," as I remember it, "Sucks to your asthmar" either ends the utterance or is followed by a name (Piggy, maybe?) -- in other words, it is not followed by a word starting with a vowel.<BR/><BR/>So my question is: Does an intrusive R occur in arhotic dialects even when the next word starts with a consonant -- or there is no next word? In other words, would someone say something like, "I have no idear!"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-75316634396300538502008-04-25T00:58:00.000+01:002008-04-25T00:58:00.000+01:00He was probably indicating an 'r' there. It's kno...He was probably indicating an 'r' there. It's known as an 'intrusive r', and it's found in many dialects that don't have the post-vocalic (after-vowel) 'r', like standard Southern British English. People with this kind of dialect say (very approximately!) 'idear' for 'idea' but 'cah' for 'car', for instance. <BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_R" REL="nofollow">here</A> is the Wikipedia article on the phenomenon. <BR/><BR/>So, yes, this probably is on-topic as Golding's intention got away from you!lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-86008500175442791602008-04-24T19:57:00.000+01:002008-04-24T19:57:00.000+01:00This is, I think, sort of on point.My freshman Eng...This is, I think, sort of on point.<BR/><BR/>My freshman English class at my Texas high school had to read William Golding's "Lord of the Flies," and for some reason, "Sucks to your asthmar!" struck a chord in several boys, who would shout it at each other, thinking Golding meant for the last word to be pronounced as we would say "azz-marr," with an American R at the end. <BR/><BR/>It didn't occur to me till much later than he must have intended a long ahh at the end. (He did, right?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-49697736334543930072008-04-23T09:51:00.000+01:002008-04-23T09:51:00.000+01:00I tried to ask my wife, who is an English as a Sec...I tried to ask my wife, who is an English as a Second Language teacher in NY, US, but I don't think I asked her correctly. She ddid note that sometimes her kids don't think a word with a more inappropriate meaning is correct. e.g., "She had drunk her milk." "Drunk?" is so tied to inebriation that it can'<BR/>t be right. <BR/><BR/>It occurred to me that song lyrics ("Ain't She Sweet") might be the source of some confusion "in this ever-changing world in which we live in" ("Live and Let Die").Roger Owen Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05298172138307632062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90933538972974511122008-04-22T00:46:00.000+01:002008-04-22T00:46:00.000+01:00Just had to add this story. My American husband's ...Just had to add this story. My American husband's name is Mark. When my daughter was a toddler, she had a very English accent (because of me). One day at nursery school, daddy was the helper and the teacher was trying to catch his attention by saying his name. He obviously didn't hear her, and finally our little one went over to the teacher and said, "It's not Marrk, (American pronunciation), it's Maahk, (English version.)Expat mumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17798190669591053390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-73040144205799694002008-04-21T21:44:00.000+01:002008-04-21T21:44:00.000+01:00While this is probably the wrong post to say this,...While this is probably the wrong post to say this, I have often had a theory about the British view that we don't "get" irony...<BR/><BR/>We get irony, we just don't particularly find it funny. We realize the humorous connotations that the irony suggests, but don't won't usually laugh out loud at it. And when it comes down to it, laughter is the true indicator of what an American finds funny.<BR/><BR/>(Sorry Lynne, I seem to just seem to send this thread down all the wrong paths...)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-42728631785530724912008-04-21T19:59:00.000+01:002008-04-21T19:59:00.000+01:00see back here for more on humo(u)r/irony.see back <A HREF="http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2007/03/humour.html" REL="nofollow">here </A> for more on humo(u)r/irony.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-47700981427966395192008-04-21T19:31:00.000+01:002008-04-21T19:31:00.000+01:00The British attribute to the Americans an inabilit...The British attribute to the Americans an inability to understand irony. The recent comments would suggest the opposite. Perhaps Americans make more use of understated sarcasm, or ironic fixed expressions -- a Yiddish influence? My impression is that British irony is more self-deprecating and American irony more, well, other-deprecating...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-43982597054779911002008-04-21T15:23:00.000+01:002008-04-21T15:23:00.000+01:00I think biochemist is right, that it does not take...I think biochemist is right, that it does not take much, intonationally speaking, to make "thanks a lot" sound sarcastic in English. Respond to an email with "Thanks a lot!" and your recipient may well take it as sarcastic (and that has no intonation at all!). But that would not happen so much with "thank you!" or "thanks so much!"lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-45760915183943607872008-04-21T15:10:00.000+01:002008-04-21T15:10:00.000+01:00biochemist, 'Thanks a lot' and 'sorry about that' ...biochemist, 'Thanks a lot' and 'sorry about that' both mean what they say in the US, too. Unless, as you say, they're loaded with intonation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com