tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post8243438171501884682..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: ae, oe, and elynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-42662937843504937752023-09-04T18:27:48.902+01:002023-09-04T18:27:48.902+01:00(Just a meagre word to the wise, as an aside: re. ...(Just a meagre word to the wise, as an aside: re. "anyhoo," in the northern midwest U.S. (specifically Wisconsin) "anyhoo" is "anywho," used as an interrogative synonym for "anyhow" but with ref. to a person as in "anyone."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-35714249991537272612023-09-04T18:27:47.943+01:002023-09-04T18:27:47.943+01:00(Just a meagre word to the wise, as an aside: re. ...(Just a meagre word to the wise, as an aside: re. "anyhoo," in the northern midwest U.S. (specifically Wisconsin) "anyhoo" is "anywho," used as an interrogative synonym for "anyhow" but with ref. to a person as in "anyone."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-65708107236800338192022-10-03T04:33:38.165+01:002022-10-03T04:33:38.165+01:00It’s not vetinary, it’s vetrinary. The r is still ...It’s not vetinary, it’s vetrinary. The r is still there, just not the e and corresponding syllable. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-38947228220239098932022-10-03T04:31:08.733+01:002022-10-03T04:31:08.733+01:00Anyhoo is more tongue and cheek to make it less of...Anyhoo is more tongue and cheek to make it less offensive to the person being dismissed. It’s a wink and a nod. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-3441195056525306242016-03-01T19:16:43.200+00:002016-03-01T19:16:43.200+00:00Hairy Scot
The spellings AE and OE were regularis...Hairy Scot<br /><br />The spellings AE and OE were regularised in Classical Latin to represent 'diphthong' sound which started with one vowel quality (a-like or o-like) and shifted to something approaching a Y-sound. Greek had similar sounds but spelled them with an I rather than an E. So Αισχυλος (Aiskhulos) and Οιδιπους (Oidipus) became Aeschylus and Oedipus in Latin.<br /><br />The two sounds were something like the English diphthongs in PRICE and CHOICE.<br /><br />However, the pronunciation of Latin changed, so that AE sounded the same as short E and OE the same as long E. This was when Latin was still a language which people learned at birth and spoke all the time.<br /><br />Then the Roman Empire disintegrated and what people learned at birth and spoke all the time was one or another dialect of Latin. These dialects became French, Italian, Spanish etc. Those knew learnt 'proper' Latin learned it as adults and read it far more often than they spoke it. So they read AE- and OE-spellings as E-spellings — with the pronunciation of E-sound which was used in the region where they lived.<br /><br />Nobody made different sounds for AE, OE and E for more than a thousand years. Late in the nineteenth century, scholars worked out what the pronunciation had been in Classical Latin. But in all that time, scholars preserved the <b>spelling</b> of Classical Latin by watching closely for mistakes in the copying of manuscripts, and by reading the unchangeable spellings carved in stone.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-83137074767190190942016-02-29T23:50:42.561+00:002016-02-29T23:50:42.561+00:00
It is my feeling that reducing æ and œ to and e s...<br />It is my feeling that reducing æ and œ to and e sound is an oversimplification that misrepresents and distorts the true pronunciation of the words containing those combinations.<br />Surely the e was added to moderate or modulate the pronunciation of the other vowels rather than replace them?<br />I wonder how Phoenicia escaped this.Hairy Scothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05750585526602145361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-21612965845166321982015-09-17T16:32:36.353+01:002015-09-17T16:32:36.353+01:00scp1957
someone presumedly erudite pronounced Cae...scp1957<br /><br /><i>someone presumedly erudite pronounced Caesarean as chezz' a ree un. Is this/was this a class thing, a boffin thing, or what?</i><br /><br />I don't think it could possibly be a matter of class or specialisation. The only source for such a pronunciation is the Italian <b>Giulio Cesare</b>. Since the speaker was a fictional character, not an Italian speaking English, I can only conclude that it was meant as a joke.<br /><br />I have to imagine two characters who find the American spelling <i>cesarean</i> amusingly ignorant. Most likely, these characters are (in my imagination) well-to-do professionals with holiday homes in the part of Tuscany often called <b>Chiantishire</b> because of all the Brits of that type holidaying there. Even without that detail, there's a habit — in comic fiction, if not in real life — for snobbish people to assume Italian speech habits.<br /><br />I wouldn't be surprised if the screenwriter intended the audience not to share the character's joke — to laugh not with him but at him.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-44951237138424379692015-09-17T09:09:32.225+01:002015-09-17T09:09:32.225+01:00My favorite pair of pronunciations in this vein is...My favorite pair of pronunciations in this vein is caesarean/Caesarean. I recall old British movies, at least two of them, in which someone presumedly erudite pronounced Caesarean as chezz' a ree un. Is this/was this a class thing, a boffin thing, or what? In any case, it tickles me even more than pronouncing Caesar as Kaiser. scp1957https://www.blogger.com/profile/16529504597505427524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-35726446597354499882015-09-17T08:48:53.544+01:002015-09-17T08:48:53.544+01:00Lynneguist, in the case of enology, that's alm...Lynneguist, in the case of enology, that's almost certainly more a matter of affectation. Consider the role of wine in middle class American social settings; it's treated as a class differentiator. Were I unkind, I might say that snobbery is their motivation. (Apologies to those who enjoy words for their own sake, as well as those whose genuine erudition is offended by the deliberate attempts of self-appointed 'reformers' of the language whose richness they know well enough to appreciate.)scp1957https://www.blogger.com/profile/16529504597505427524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-51278931398550868312015-09-17T08:33:31.393+01:002015-09-17T08:33:31.393+01:00"Edward M Carney in A survey of English spell..."Edward M Carney in A survey of English spelling estimates that the BrE ae is e in AmE in 89% of words and 63% of names. (I was a bit puzzled that the name claim was so high, as I have a hard time thinking of names that are spelt differently in the two dialects. The only one I can come up with is Rachel, which I'd never seen spelt Rachael until I moved to the UK--but now I notice that an American cooking celebrity has that name.)"<br /><br />I would not have been puzzled, for two reasons: The first is the practice, with familiar names, of valuing unique, inventive, and/or 'traditional' spellings. (This has strong historical roots among African-Americans, being an extension of the slave practice which allowed some hope of later contact should a child be sold "down the river". This practice has also gained traction among whites, for various reasons, in recent decades.) The second is the stubborn persistence of archaic pronunciations among Yankee and Scots-Irish families, almost into the present day. (As late as the seventies, I encountered several native speakers, through the Carolina border area SE of Asheville, whose speech was quite archaic, even Elizabethan.) scp1957https://www.blogger.com/profile/16529504597505427524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-363527681406960502015-06-22T17:18:34.259+01:002015-06-22T17:18:34.259+01:00foetus is also a latin form, at least in Renaissan...foetus is also a latin form, at least in Renaissance period latin:<br /><br />http://publicdomainreview.org/collections/plates-from-spiegels-de-formato-foetu-liber-singularis-1626/<br /><br />The author is flemish.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16784298034112057543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-83892357546591671222010-01-05T09:53:31.310+00:002010-01-05T09:53:31.310+00:00The word which I see increasingly being used with ...The word which I see increasingly being used with its American spelling in the UK in this category is medi(a)eval. Someone even tried to correct my usage of the British spelling with the 'a' in place - though I soon put them right!Roshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02669423378438380019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-2816263776254646222007-09-13T13:46:00.000+01:002007-09-13T13:46:00.000+01:00Lynne,Strike that last note -- I can't even get my...Lynne,<BR/><BR/>Strike that last note -- I can't even get my mental calendar straight! We'll be tuning in THIS COMING Saturday!<BR/><BR/>JanetJanethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16494516976868488211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-25175091228462085342007-09-13T13:43:00.000+01:002007-09-13T13:43:00.000+01:00Lynne,Damn...didn't know about Ant & Dec in time t...Lynne,<BR/><BR/>Damn...didn't know about Ant & Dec in time to watch last Saturday. That's what I get for staying constantly behind in my blog reading...<BR/><BR/>JanetJanethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16494516976868488211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-20222875199490469682007-09-13T09:48:00.000+01:002007-09-13T09:48:00.000+01:00I don't think anyhoo is any more/less dismissive t...I don't think <I>anyhoo</I> is any more/less dismissive than <I>anyhow</I>--it's just a matter of context. When you're using either, it's usually to change the topic of conversation, so you can see that as 'dismissing' the last topic, if you like--but it's not necessarily a bad thing.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-69496271756420693442007-09-13T08:26:00.000+01:002007-09-13T08:26:00.000+01:00Isn't "anyhoo" dismissive, as in a third person jo...Isn't "anyhoo" dismissive, as in a third person joins a conversation, late, spouts all sorts of non-rlevent fac-pinion. when they pause, one of the original parties to the conversation remarks "anyhoo" and returns to the real topic.<BR/>Also useful if someone has just put their foot in their mouth in front of others. "anyhoo" from one of the audience will break the embarsing silence and the discussion can continue.flashgordonnzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17934275623938566914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-70734806221465838382007-09-12T19:37:00.000+01:002007-09-12T19:37:00.000+01:00Speaking as someone who orders rather a lot of lib...Speaking as someone who orders rather a lot of library books, I certainly haven't noticed 'fetus' being preferred over 'foetus' in British titlespandophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12499439566627693699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-18591654414667585462007-09-12T12:53:00.000+01:002007-09-12T12:53:00.000+01:00Thanks for the Ant&Dec warning. I probably would ...Thanks for the Ant&Dec warning. I probably would have caught it anyway, but now I'm sure to!stephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16749932791938557725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-17418855888266099382007-09-11T01:48:00.000+01:002007-09-11T01:48:00.000+01:00mollymooly, I never want to play Scrabble against ...mollymooly, I never want to play Scrabble against you.<BR/><BR/>Speaking of (A)Etna, there's a huge insurance company in the U.S. called Aetna. According to its website, the name was "inspired" by the volcano, Mt. Etna. "Awed by the strength of the mountain, [the founders] named their fledgling venture Aetna Insurance Company" in 1850.flatlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14711270206823934186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-86107744678079920212007-09-10T23:00:00.000+01:002007-09-10T23:00:00.000+01:00ans with the same long "e" in anaesthetise, but a ...<I>ans with the same long "e" in anaesthetise, but a short one in anaesthetic.</I><BR/><BR/>All to do with the stress. Most unstressed vowels in BrE are reduced to a schwa or an i.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952564820382472228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-47367398178358230672007-09-10T21:07:00.000+01:002007-09-10T21:07:00.000+01:00In case anyone cares, anacaea should read panacaea...In case anyone cares, <I>anacaea</I> should read <I>panacaea</I> in my previous post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-2137950887380587082007-09-10T17:02:00.000+01:002007-09-10T17:02:00.000+01:00When considering ae, oe, and ue in various forms o...When considering ae, oe, and ue in various forms of English, you need to watch out for transliterated forms of umlauted vowels: Zweibruecken, when Zweibrücken is too difficult.<BR/><BR/>I suspect this is a factor in borrowings from languages that use the umlaut.Doug Sundsethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848091504066560951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-6543148005620741612007-09-10T15:12:00.000+01:002007-09-10T15:12:00.000+01:00I don't think arch(a)eology consistently loses its...I don't think arch(a)eology consistently loses its second "a" in AmE - I remember in elementary school when it was on my spelling list, using "archaic" as a memory device to put that second "a" in!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-42670223493792986132007-09-10T12:50:00.000+01:002007-09-10T12:50:00.000+01:00The champion for THAT, I think, is asthma. It is a...The champion for THAT, I think, is asthma. It is almost always pronounced either athsma or just plain azzma. That must be a spelling change in its early stages. Like the "respi(ra)tory" and "vet(er)inary" I hear a lot on KSHN. And possibly "lib(ra)ry", wihch I don't. Libry, I think, is more common here, while respitory and vetinary appear to be more AmE.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-86851362715300588172007-09-10T09:39:00.000+01:002007-09-10T09:39:00.000+01:00Definitely not a general AmE feature, Cameron, but...Definitely not a general AmE feature, Cameron, but likely to be a feature of some idiolects and possibly dialects. It's a bit of a tongue-twister to put 'th' and 's' together, which is why a lot of people also say 'twelfs' instead of 'twelfths'.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.com