tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post8693572652734131637..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: forest, wood and woodslynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger74125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-3319969004137373152022-01-20T16:17:55.229+00:002022-01-20T16:17:55.229+00:00On the issue of size, since sizes of geographical ...On the issue of size, since sizes of geographical features tend to be not well understood across the Atlantic:<br /><br />The nearest National Forest to me is Arapaho National Forest. It has an area of 2928 km^2. It is one of eleven National Forests in Colorado, and many parts are very nearly wilderness. At that size, I think it's in the bottom half of the list of the 154 US National Forests when the list is sorted by area.<br /><br />If I were to go shooting in Arapaho National Forest, I'd probably refer to it as "going shooting in the woods" or "going shooting on National Forest land".Doug Sundsethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12416285410276713188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-11819293281667669392014-08-29T18:40:27.871+01:002014-08-29T18:40:27.871+01:00Anonymous
My favourite 78rpm record as a child i...Anonymous<br /><br /><i> My favourite 78rpm record as a child in the 60's was Teddy Bear's Picnic and I recall the words were down TO the woods. </i><br /><br />Even as late as the 60's, they were still playing <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZANKFxrcKU" rel="nofollow"> the Henry Hall version</a> (click), which most certainly had '<i>down <b>in</b> the woods</i>'. You might have been listening to <a rel="nofollow"> the Anne Murray version</a> (click), which also had '<i>down <b>in</b> the woods</i>'.<br /><br />I strongly suspect that your memory has unconsciously censored the words. The sources you googled may even have censored consciously.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-80677699921173042182014-08-29T13:36:57.702+01:002014-08-29T13:36:57.702+01:00My favourite 78rpm record as a child in the 60'...My favourite 78rpm record as a child in the 60's was Teddy Bear's Picnic and I recall the words were down TO the woods. So I googled the lyrics - written by an Irish man in 1932 and every source has "to" not "in". Being English, going down in the woods sounds obscene to me.<br /><br />Sorry this is anymous, it wont let me sign in.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-10385530415868510172014-04-25T01:50:46.258+01:002014-04-25T01:50:46.258+01:00Massachusetts Age 25-
Apologies in advance:
Goin...Massachusetts Age 25-<br /><br />Apologies in advance:<br /><br />Going down in the wood is still more innocent than going down on the wood.<br /><br />The connotations brought to mind by wood woods and forest are less directly about size than they are about wildness. A wood is carefully managed, possibly on private land. Woods are less well maintained but still domestic. Forests are wild growth tended by only mother nature.(prototypically at any rate)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02138260302522477243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-44948293451926907322013-10-03T04:47:08.121+01:002013-10-03T04:47:08.121+01:00I so (sooooooo) hate to break it to the Ashdown Fo...I so (sooooooo) hate to break it to the Ashdown Forest, but they are perhaps not as famous as they hope; I for one had never heard of them before, much less had known that they were the basis for the 100 Acre Wood.<br /><br />However now I do. I (perhaps rather weirdly) actually love knowing this kind of thing (it makes life more interesting, and somehow all around better), so I appreciate that it was brought up. I didn't even know there /was/ a basis for the 100 Acre Wood.<br /><br />Why do the things of our childhood stir us so deeply?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-74891362074817655992013-10-03T00:26:49.980+01:002013-10-03T00:26:49.980+01:00PS
Here's the link to the Ashdown Forest site...PS <br />Here's the link to <a href="http://www.ashdownforest.org/home/index.php" rel="nofollow">the Ashdown Forest site</a>. Note the scarcity of trees in the photo. On a different screen they explain that the 'forest' is 60% heathland and only 40% woodland.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9171774394833653012013-10-02T23:31:03.624+01:002013-10-02T23:31:03.624+01:00FLbased Brit
Funny to read about the Hundred Acre...FLbased Brit<br /><br /><i>Funny to read about the Hundred Acre Wood...</i><br /><br />Not so funny — well, not surprising, anyway. Their publicity reads:<br /><br /><i><b>Discover more at Ashdown Forest...</b><br /><br />Originally a deer hunting forest in Norman times, Ashdown Forest is now one of the largest free public access space in the South East. It is a great place for walking and enjoying spectacular views over the Sussex countryside and is known the world over as the 'home' of Winnie-the-Pooh.</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-40005402460151971522013-10-02T19:02:32.639+01:002013-10-02T19:02:32.639+01:00Funny to read about the Hundred Acre Wood in this ...Funny to read about the Hundred Acre Wood in this context - it's non-fiction name being the Ashdown Forest!FLbasedBritnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-28597263539077058562013-09-25T23:17:44.852+01:002013-09-25T23:17:44.852+01:00Of course i associate bears with the woods but I l...Of course i associate bears with <i>the woods</i> but I love <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNCZPaSG2jM" rel="nofollow">this verse from Little Esther</a><br /><br /><b>Esther</b>: <i>You should be out in in the forest, Fighting a big old grizzly bear</i><br /><b>Bobby</b>: <i>How come you ain't out in the forest?</i><br /><b>Esther</b>: (spoken) <i>I'm a lady</i><br /><b>Bobby</b>: <i>They got lady bears out there</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-28414543695742136432013-09-20T20:05:21.169+01:002013-09-20T20:05:21.169+01:00ek
It started with "the wood", which, ...ek<br /><br /><i> It started with "the wood", which, as noted in the original post, does not mean any sort of tree-filled land of any size in American English.</i><br /><br />I accept that it <b>usually</b> doesn't mean that, bit I've seen too many counter-examples to accept that it <b>never</b> means that for <b>all</b> AmE speakers.<br /><br />I even have a blues record where the artist (Blind Lemon Jefferson) sang <i>piney wood</i> but the record company put <i>Piney Woods</i> on the label. Your poet Robert Frost has been quoted using and <i>wood</i>. Your place names with <i>wood</i> — including the centre of your film industry — suggest that <i>wood</i> was once more commonly used than it is now.<br /><br />Yes I am suggesting that there might be a geographical pressure in the demise of <i>wood</i> in America and the preservation in Britain. I may be wrong, but it's with considering.<br /><br />What we're both agreed on is that the most important difference between BrE and AmE is the use of <i>wood, woods, the wood, the woods</i>. The use of <i>forest, the forest</i> is a side issue.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-67090068877934168292013-09-20T16:19:54.445+01:002013-09-20T16:19:54.445+01:00David Crosbie, you seem to be saying that the diff...David Crosbie, you seem to be saying that the differences in usage have to do with differences in geography rather than differences in language. But you are forgetting the original post. It started with "the wood", which, as noted in the original post, does not mean any sort of tree-filled land of any size in American English.eknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-43284481096214916222013-09-20T01:27:09.603+01:002013-09-20T01:27:09.603+01:00We seem to have reduced one AmE/BrE difference lar...We seem to have reduced one AmE/BrE difference largely to the disparity in geographical size. We're much more likely to speak of <i>a wood</i> and so much less likely to speak of <i>a forest</i> because we're small have lots of places called <i>a wood</i>, while you're big and have lots of places called <i>a forest</i>.<br /><br />The major difference lies in what we can (and quite often do) mean by <i>the wood</i> and <i>the woods</i>.<br /><br />It occurs to me that we have a strange rule which applies to foreign words but not to native words like <i>wood(s)</i>. <br /><br />When we say <i>the veld, the steppe, the taiga, the marais</i> (and no doubt more that I haven't thought of), we mean 'such land as has the quality of such-and-such'. We don't mean 'that particular patch of such-and-such land that we both have in mind'.<br /><br />The native word <i>bush</i> can be used both ways but with very different meanings. <i>The bush</i> can be land of a certain type (cf <i>veldt</i>) or a definite plant (cf <i>tree</i>). The definite noun phrases <i>the wood</i> and <i>the woods</i> have meanings which are confusingly similar but also crucially different.<br /><br />• In the <i>veld/steppe/taiga</i>sense, both <i>the wood</i> and <i>the woods</i> can be used, but BrE favours the former and AmE seems to very much favour the latter.<br /><br />• In the <b>patch of ground</b> sense, <i>the wood</i> has connotations of a smaller area than <i>the woods</i>. Britain has more patches that are smaller, so we have more occasions to refer to a definite example as <i>the wood</i>.<br /><br /><i>The forest</i> also has the two senses: a <i>veldt</i>-type sense and a definite <b>patch of land</b> sense. I believe <i>the prairie</i> has only the former sense, which would fit in with my <b>foreign words</b> rule. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)<br /><br />A borderline phrase is <i>the jungle</i>. In my lifetime, this has largely been replaced by <i>tropical forest</i> (without definite <b>the</b>). This may be because <i>the jungle</i> has acquired unfortunate connotations, often racial. Duke Ellington was forced to philosophise on what an interesting place <i>the jungle</i> was, claiming it as a place located in music, not in racist fantasies of Africa.<br /><br /><i>The street</i> is like <i>the bush</i>. Figuratively, it's like <i>the veldt</i>; literally it refers to a defined thoroughfare.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-87794764786949001032013-09-20T00:23:08.335+01:002013-09-20T00:23:08.335+01:00@Joe: Although Oregon is only slightly larger tha...@Joe: Although Oregon is only slightly larger than the UK in area, it has significantly more rainfall (at least in the most populated areas).<br /><br />See <br /><br />http://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Oregon/average-yearly-precipitation.php<br /><br />http://www.currentresults.com/Weather/United-Kingdom/average-yearly-precipitation.phpvphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-88911085904679855922013-09-19T18:54:20.286+01:002013-09-19T18:54:20.286+01:00@starwefter - re: “That was fascinating about the ...@starwefter - re: “That was fascinating about the official definition in Great Britain of forest as opposed to wood”<br /><br />You have to remember that the ancient legal distinctions that David Crosbie and I have been talking about here stem from the feudal system that the Normans brought to these isles in 1066. I don't know if anything remains in English (or Scottish) law of these ancient distinctions, but there does seem to be a residue of those historic distinctions in the way we use the terms “wood” and “forest” in the UK today.<br /><br />Maybe we just have long memories (helped along by ancient place names, like: "Sherwood Forest")!Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01942222357271077212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-25534945388264070842013-09-19T18:39:18.959+01:002013-09-19T18:39:18.959+01:00@Alyssa - re: “Is it common in the UK to find the ...@Alyssa - re: “Is it common in the UK to find the small groupings of trees that ‘a wood’ calls to mind?”<br /><br />Absolutely - it’s a small country with a fairly dense, though unevenly distributed population: think Oregon but with 16 times the population (and 16 times the rainfall) – we do “small stuff” pretty well :-)<br /><br />Obviously, the number of woods varies from place to place, and while we bemoan urban sprawl, you only have to take to the air (or Google maps) to see how green is our land.<br /><br />Try pasting this address: “52.4432, -2.2120” into Google maps. I grew up just north east of here, on the edge of the West Midlands conurbation a.k.a. The Black Country (the rust-belt towns between Birmingham and Wolverhampton), and used to walk and cycle and fish in this area when I was a kid. Best seen on satellite view are a whole selection of different sized wooded areas in a patchwork with fields and villages and towns. You will also see the different names applied to some of the woods: “x Wood”, “x Coppice / Copse” (an area of woodland [formerly] managed as “coppice” or “coppice with standards”), and “x Covert” (a small area of land left wild as a sanctuary for game). The names aren’t there on Google, but I remember there also being woods in the area known locally as “x Plantation” (small areas trees planted as a commercial forestry crop, usually conifers, frequently non-native).Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01942222357271077212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-27796655747328007502013-09-19T17:24:25.101+01:002013-09-19T17:24:25.101+01:00@Julie - re:" The California Coast Range is m...@Julie - re:" The California Coast Range is mostly not high"<br /><br />Another interesting difference in "scale / crossover point” between East and West-Pondian “high” there.<br /><br />To us Brits, the Californian Coastal Ranges are definitely high. The highest point in the Coastal Ranges is Black Butte at 2,272 m, whereas the highest point in the whole of the UK is Ben Nevis at 1,344 m.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01942222357271077212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-41112625097656020212013-09-19T16:57:51.724+01:002013-09-19T16:57:51.724+01:00Rosa Henderson also recorded Back Woods Blues in 1...Rosa Henderson also recorded <b>Back Woods Blues</b> in 1924. Unlike Clara Smith she sand the opening 'verse':<br /><br /><i>Way back down behind Decatur : in an Alabama shack<br />There's my mammy and my daddy : wondering' when I'm comin' back<br />How I miss them, goodness knows: more and more each day<br />That's why I've got these backwoods blues : ever since I went away</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-49862137034606260532013-09-19T16:50:51.659+01:002013-09-19T16:50:51.659+01:00@Julie - re:"out in the boonies"
Hey, t...@Julie - re:"out in the boonies"<br /><br />Hey, this is "Seperated By A Common Language", not "Tagalog Blog" :-)Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01942222357271077212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-38443164277041834432013-09-19T03:43:37.310+01:002013-09-19T03:43:37.310+01:00Starwefter, here's a set of lyrics that might ...Starwefter, here's a set of lyrics that might interest you: Clara Smith's 1924 <b>Back Woods Blues</b>.<br /><br /><i>Got the backwoods blues : but I don't want to go back home<br />Got the blues so bad : for the place that I came from<br />Ought to see my folks : but it's way too far<br />To ride in a dusty old : Jim Crow car<br />Got the backwoods blues : but I don't want to go back home<br /><br />Got the backwoods blues : for the place way down in 'Bam<br />Got the blues : but I'm going to stay here where I am<br />Going to stay right here : just where I'm at<br />Where there ain't no grinning : and snatching off my hat<br />Got the backwoods blues : but I don't want to go back home<br /><br />Got the backwoods blues : for the folks I left down home<br />I got the blues : for them poor old folks alone<br />Yes I'm from down there : I am proud to say to say<br />But from down there : I'm gonna stay<br />Got the backwoods blues : but I don't want to go back home</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-16097362239474802832013-09-19T03:40:25.442+01:002013-09-19T03:40:25.442+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-15840128641635756082013-09-19T03:10:14.281+01:002013-09-19T03:10:14.281+01:00Starwefter
Somehow I don't see us using it f...Starwefter<br /><br /><i> Somehow I don't see us using it for anyone quite that high up the social ladder</i><br /><br />It was a joke! <br /><br />It <b>first</b> meant some poor farmer miles from civilisation. It was <b>later</b> used mockingly of those seldom-seen aristocrats.<br /><br />It's entirely possible that it originally crossed the Atlantic from you to us.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-84756685984820421912013-09-19T02:38:56.212+01:002013-09-19T02:38:56.212+01:00I grew up surrounded by the California redwoods. W...I grew up surrounded by the California redwoods. When you left town you were in the woods. Some official government entity might designate a state or national forest and give it a boundary, but the hundreds and hundreds of square miles of trees are simply "the woods." The indefiniteness is exemplified by the plural...they go on nearly forever. You can go all the way to Canada without leaving "the woods." <br /><br />Never "the wood." That would imply a small area, neatly defined, like a developer might plant on his property. People who work in the woods are loggers, or rangers, or whatever, or just "work in the woods." <br /><br />The mountains there are generally called "hills," although individually they are sometimes named "ridges," a truer description. (The California Coast Range is mostly not high, but is rugged, with steep hills and narrow canyons.)<br /><br />The "backwoods?" I think that's someone's pot farm. Those are usually "out in the boonies."Juliehttp://www.julieannmaahs.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-84122745914913281172013-09-19T02:02:52.263+01:002013-09-19T02:02:52.263+01:00Woodcraft I think means the same in both British a...Woodcraft I think means the same in both British and American English, woodsman though brings more to mind someone like Daniel Boone for me. We might call a modern guy working in the woods/forest a forester, but I really think we'd be more likely to say a forestry worker (or else refer to a specific job, like a logger for someone who cuts down trees). <br /><br />I suspect that "backwoods" made it across the Atlantic, but changed meaning a bit in the process, lacking any peers to attach too. Somehow I don't see us using it for anyone quite that high up the social ladder; it's more likely we'd used it to refer to someone farming said Lord's far back 40 acres, or the guy that farmer hired as help.<br /><br />In trying to hunt down a specific set of lyrics to use as an example though, Google spit out a link for all kinds of lyrics that contain the word "backwood" or "backwoods" and what is interesting is that it retains the concept of being from a rural area, small town or out-in-the-middle-of-nowhere place with the absence of city polish and sophistication. <a rel="nofollow">http://www.lyrics.net/lyrics/backwoods</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-36446122285114443082013-09-18T09:06:04.913+01:002013-09-18T09:06:04.913+01:00I agree with Philip Nea. "There are a number ...I agree with Philip Nea. "There are a number of word pairs such as town/city yard/garden shop/store which mean much the same thing, but a) the second member of the pair is indefinably more impressive than the first, and b) North America sets the boundary between the two at a different point. I suspect that wood/forest is an example, and I would be interested to see a post about the general phenomenon. "stonehttp://bestrecumbentexercisebikes.us/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-7009821531236997362013-09-18T02:53:05.958+01:002013-09-18T02:53:05.958+01:00Perhaps it's significant that the OED entry fo...Perhaps it's significant that the OED entry for <i>woodman</i> is considerably longer than the entry for <i>woodsman</i>.<br /><br />A strange difference is how the plural is reported. <i>Woodmen</i> is given without comment, but <i>woodsmen</i> is described as <i>(Chiefly U.S.)</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.com