tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post8950125603749436996..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: glee clubs, with asides on club-joining and barbershopslynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-56132516739441392432020-08-18T12:12:48.035+01:002020-08-18T12:12:48.035+01:00BrE (Scot, 60+). Before reading this post, I would...BrE (Scot, 60+). Before reading this post, I would have assumed that “glee club” and “barber shop trio/quartet” could be used interchangeably. You live and learn. In recent years, non-religious choirs have become extremely popular in the U.K., thanks to Gareth Malone, although I’m not sure if there’s much choreography involved. However, it does seem to be obligatory for every song to be at least partly rendered in the Mahalia Jackson gospel style. For me, worse than ”journey songs”, but only because the style has been overdone to the point of now being a choral cliche.Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-25435593596235087202010-07-12T01:05:49.359+01:002010-07-12T01:05:49.359+01:00Americans are singing up a damn storm. Admittedly ...Americans are singing up a damn storm. Admittedly there's more of everything in New York than in most places, but check the website van.org (Vocal Area Network) and your head will spin with the choral opportunities in the city and neighboring areas. I myself sang twice this very afternoon, Renaissance music and shape-note (mentioned by fauxlore above). Both sets of music are religious, but not my religion; I just like to sing them -- and the groups I sing with are secular. <br /><br />And it may well be true that Americans don't have the same kind of clubs that English people do, and further may be true, in the "Bowling Alone" thesis, that Americans are spending less time in the kind of organized groups we used to have, and I'm sure it's true Americans are more connected to churches. But I think people are still getting together to do stuff, whether that's book groups, as you yourself mentioned above, or tennis buddies, or Thursday night knitting class at the yarn store, or gatherings through Meetup.com, as someone else mentioned, and I don't know why these shouldn't count, even if there isn't a clubhouse or a chairman.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-50871435451422684962010-07-09T13:18:03.641+01:002010-07-09T13:18:03.641+01:00I woud expect most Brits to actively avoid anythin...<i>I woud expect most Brits to actively avoid anything organised by Christians, no matter how appealing the activity itself</i><br /><br />By "Christians", yes, but not by the Church [of England, that is] - there are plenty of atheists in church choirs; my atheist great aunt was for many years the organist at her village church, and I strongly suspect that many of the hordes of volunteers who maintain the fabric of our ecclesiastical architecture aren't actually big on the God business either. In fact, I'm not even that convinced that it's a requirement if you want to be a C of E bishop. <br /><br />Linguistically speaking, putting "Christian" in the name of any organisation is a strong pointer towards its being some kind of evangelical do, and Brits like being evangelised almost as much as they like being sold double glazing.Albert Herringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05195446593237255598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-40295180582156469852010-07-07T03:26:18.333+01:002010-07-07T03:26:18.333+01:00Re: clubs in America, you should read Bowling Alon...Re: clubs in America, you should read <i>Bowling Alone</i> by Robert Putnam, who discusses the decline in membership and various implications of it throughout the country.<br /><br />I know a lot of people who sing in non-church choirs, but they belong to either sea chantey groups or folk music groups. If one were to name a uniquely American song of social singing, I think I'd have to nominate shape note singing, which appears to have transcended its religious origins.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-41220932124290526132010-07-04T07:38:59.804+01:002010-07-04T07:38:59.804+01:00@Lynne I envy you in your city with two Scrabble c...@Lynne I envy you in your city with two Scrabble clubs. My home town (pop. c. 100,000) has none, so I need to travel to a nearby small town for my Scrabble fix.<br /><br />@Anonymous: it's not being TOO into Scrabble to know obscure little words with rare letters. Mugging up on words like that is essential to being any good as a club player. It's part of learning the game, just as learning how to play a variety of openings from the White and Black sides is part of learning chess. Mind you, if you don't want to mug up on words, or you're content to remain what some chess players call a wood-pusher, fine. If you can find people who'll give you a game and you enjoy playing them, you don't have to join a club.<br /><br />I don't know of anyone trying to sneak his own tiles into a club game, though. The opponent might be suspicious. I know I would.<br /><br />@Brian "Alma mater" meaning a school or university song might be AmE, but it is certainly not BrE, in which "alma mater" means the school or university itself.Richard Sabeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06707961497644079468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-65385621230841438512010-07-03T17:34:12.924+01:002010-07-03T17:34:12.924+01:00Oooh, I love academic asides. Thanks, Christopher...Oooh, I love academic asides. Thanks, Christopher!lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-67758524920530364832010-07-03T09:44:58.645+01:002010-07-03T09:44:58.645+01:00As an interesting (?) academic aside the number of...As an interesting (?) academic aside the number of choir memberships (presumably including glees) along with that of other non-church 'social clubs' has been declining in the USA since the 60s (according to Putnam, 2000). There has been some decline in the UK, but it's been limited to clubs in working class communities, whereas apparently it has been across the board in America.<br /><br />Perhaps this is why Lynne notices more joining in the UK?Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05481519195527179610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-27694497934286466202010-07-03T05:26:11.020+01:002010-07-03T05:26:11.020+01:00I had to look up "pep squad" but I still...I had to look up "pep squad" but I still can't really get my head round the concept. I can't imagine such a thing existing in the UK.Gary McQueenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13492203920944257522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90164311474014908922010-07-03T03:59:02.808+01:002010-07-03T03:59:02.808+01:00In my 1970's high-school choir, the director w...In my 1970's high-school choir, the director would use "glee club" disparagingly when he felt we weren't taking the performance seriously, as in "Are we a going to be a choir or a glee club." Some where in there had come the idea that a glee club was a fun activity, akin to a "pep squad". A choir or chorus was a serious undertaking (which sometimes did non-serious music). <br /><br />I'm also surprised no-one has mentioned <i>Sister Act</i> in it's various versions for the contrast between choirs/choruses and show choirs.DetailBearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15284066968358363103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-89959846143625837322010-07-02T20:30:01.441+01:002010-07-02T20:30:01.441+01:00and Stephen Jones is just the kind of person I wou...and Stephen Jones is just the kind of person I would not want to be in a Scrabble club with...;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-7225253780249018562010-07-02T06:44:57.052+01:002010-07-02T06:44:57.052+01:00that in ancient hindi "Qzif" is a valid ...<i>that in ancient hindi "Qzif" is a valid word and uses it for a triple word score.</i><br />There's no such thing as Ancient Hindi, and in Hindi 'q', 'z' and 'f' are only ever used in loan words.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05952564820382472228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-59752363347114609982010-07-01T23:08:43.347+01:002010-07-01T23:08:43.347+01:00As an American (and one who can't carry a tune...As an American (and one who can't carry a tune in a bucket), "glee club" brings to mind a traditional all-male university group; I immediately think of the Cornell University Glee Club singing their (AmE?) <b>alma mater</b> ("Far above Cayuga's waters..."); a YouTube search will yield examples.<br /><br />Glees, the songs, may be more popular in the UK than you think: "A British Tar Is a Soaring Soul" from <i>H.M.S. Pinafore</i> is listed as a glee in the score.<br /><br />My small university, when I attended it in the late '90s, had a chorus, a chamber singers group, and a few more informal a capella groups (which, depending on the group and what day it was, could have both men and women or one or the other).<br /><br />I could be off-base, but I get the impression that in the US, especially outside large cities, schools (and colleges and universities) and churches have much more of a "community center" function than they do in the UK. To be certain, in American football, college fandom is far more passionate than at the professional level, even for those who have never attended the college or have any connection to it.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03775279072826816185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-23233982474363610882010-07-01T19:38:07.204+01:002010-07-01T19:38:07.204+01:00Weighing in from the left coast of the left contin...Weighing in from the left coast of the left continent here...When I attended Stanford University in the early '70s there were three "official" (i.e. school-sponsored, take them as courses for credit) vocal organizations: Choir (which sang only religious music and performed in the regular services in the university church), Chorus (which did 'serious' choral works, sometimes in conjunction with the San Francisco Symphony), and Glee Club (which did a mix of light classical -'pops' if you will - as well as popular and show tunes, the latter performed off the risers on an open stage with light coreography). All three were mixed male/female voices.<br /><br />In addition there was an all-male <i>a capella</i> group, the Stanford Mendicants, which was strictly extracurricular and which was founded to ape similar types of groups from the Ivy League such as the Yale Whiffenpoofs, which sound very much like the original sort of British glee clubs. Incidentally, <i>a capella</i> singing groups have blossomed since then. At Stanford today there are around 15 of them, including the (still all-male) Mendicants, all of which do pretty much the same kind of repertoire, a style which I would have called "do-wop" back in the day with solo or duo/trio singers backed by the rest of the group providing non-verbal musical and percussive sounds. <br /><br />And I can't leave without responding to the comments about the group Journey. I actually knew the band when they were first starting out in the San Francisco Bay Area, well enough to hang out with them backstage (my only close brush with rock and roll stardom!) and while I can appreciate the sentiments about the cheezy pop sound they eventually morphed into, in the early days, they were a really creative progressive rock band with top-flight musicians, esp. guitarist Neal Schon. Check out any of their first three albums before they acquired vocalist Steve Perry if you don't believe me. But note also that they didn't achieve commercial success until they changed their style into the Pop music that many of you so obviously detest.<br /><br />BTW, I've never seen the TV show Glee, but I don't watch much TV at all and almost never network shows. It sounds interesting, though.darcherdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-36609783584308126522010-07-01T17:27:45.428+01:002010-07-01T17:27:45.428+01:00One downside to clubs that may be more prevalent i...One downside to clubs that may be more prevalent in the US is the desire to avoid the people that may be TOO into whatever you are interested in.<br /><br />I may like Renaissance history, but have no interest in interacting with the person that dresses in tights and says "Good Morrow" in general conversation.<br /><br />Or I might like Scrabble, but have no interest in being stuck playing with the guy who hand-caraved his own tiles and has discovered that in ancient hindi "Qzif" is a valid word and uses it for a triple word score.<br /><br />Usually if you are in a club, it has a much less casual feel or reputation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-56807049241470149122010-07-01T17:22:04.106+01:002010-07-01T17:22:04.106+01:00"As to clubs- how else does one partake of an..."As to clubs- how else does one partake of any group activity with which one finds an affinity? Where else so you meet like-minded people with common interests?" <br /><br />The thing is...in many cases...we don't.<br />We generally hang around with our established group of friends, and if we are lucky, they have most of the same interests as we do. Other than that, if your friends don't like Scrabble, you don't play.<br />The exceptions to this are team sports and, as Lynne indicated, theatre. But that is purely because you need more than two or three people to be involved.<br /><br />Something related to this, that the clubs would probably help with, is the often difficult task of making new friends as an adult. (Just google "How do I make new friends as an adult?" for a slew of articles) Is this not a phenomenon in the UK? More widespread clubs would help.<br /><br />Now if course, there are tons of people in tons of clubs/groups out there...the internet is helping a lot though, and I would bet that the numbers have grown...but it seems like there is a "club culture" as Lynne is sort of describing it and we just don't generally have that here.billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-23759833841420743772010-07-01T17:05:51.270+01:002010-07-01T17:05:51.270+01:00Regarding your last (non footnote) para - do I int...Regarding your last (non footnote) para - do I interpret you right as looking for the BrE term for a barbershop? Barbers are generally men-only establishments (of the sort where they charge more for 'long hair'). Hairdressers would be the female/unisex equivalent.townmousehttp://cityexile.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-67719077680735328562010-07-01T16:46:35.662+01:002010-07-01T16:46:35.662+01:00Above comment was from Solo btw. OpenID managed to...Above comment was from Solo btw. OpenID managed to obscure my identity in a bid at ironic social commentary. Probably.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-13786761752934359922010-07-01T16:45:09.609+01:002010-07-01T16:45:09.609+01:00Actually Lynnguist I disparaged Journey and dreams...Actually Lynnguist I disparaged Journey and dreams/ambition/finding oneself too. If I ever watch Glee with friends the 'Just follow your heart and be true to yourself' bits are where we flick channels or make a cup of tea to negate the nausea.<br /><br />Melissa: Some Brits do go in for that sort of attitude, but most of us grow out of it by the end of school because... well real life happens. I may be under a misapprehension, but I think it's fair to say the Brits are far more cynical/ less demonstratively gushing as a nation.<br /><br />I can't believe in the US you can go to choir and it counts as school. (I mean I can, but it's still ard to rationalie.) In the UK any club/ group type thinh <i>had</i> to be extra-curricular and outside school hours. Like PE (physical education) was compulsory, but if you wanted to join a sports team, or the athletics squad etc you had to go at lunch or after school. Team sports were the only time when it was acceptabe to separate the boys and girls too, everything else was (AmE) <b>'co-ed'</b>.<br /><br />It's interestng that glee clubs are a long ago British export, the seem like such an American thing to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-3023361859671932372010-07-01T11:56:30.280+01:002010-07-01T11:56:30.280+01:00To me, until I read about the TV programme "G...To me, until I read about the TV programme "Glee club" would have suggested an early 19th century men's singing and drinking club, as described by Dickens et al.<br /><br />I live in Derby, a smallish English city, which supports numerous choirs including two large ones specialising in the oratorio repertoire. (My own, Derby Bach Choir, sang almost no secular music under our previous conductor, but we now give occasional secular concerts by way of a change.) I don't have time to sing with more than one, but I know many people who also belong to church-affiliated choirs - it certainly isn't a turn-off here in Derby! <br /><br />KateAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-46511743480172896972010-07-01T11:54:12.113+01:002010-07-01T11:54:12.113+01:00Glee Club (with the capital C) for me (BrE) bring...Glee Club (with the capital C) for me (BrE) brings up the Liberal Democrat Conference event: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glee_Club_(British_politics) is a rather thin summary.<br /><br />I suspect that it is that glee club that drove the occasional references in political writing in the UK that your other commentors notice.Richard Gadsdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10545595590359552775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-48949519573971809552010-07-01T11:22:59.459+01:002010-07-01T11:22:59.459+01:00Thanks for clearing up a load of misapprehensions ...Thanks for clearing up a load of misapprehensions on my part, Lynne. I'd heard of glee clubs but just had this vague idea of people singing together informally as opposed to the serious business of a choir or chorus which would rehearse and perform. <br /><br />Either way glee clubs weren't something I thought about much and I obviously didn't make the connection with the only episode of Glee that I've seen, since I thought it was about a cheerleading group.RWMGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04271851970303022440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-8488707027360991282010-07-01T11:22:00.053+01:002010-07-01T11:22:00.053+01:00I was never much of a joiner until I moved out of ...I was never much of a joiner until I moved out of London. Now I'm a member of our tiny village's (pop 60) choir. My interest in music is fairly minimal (although I enjoy singing) but it's proved the only way to get to know people in the absence of a local pub. <br /><br />Our choir (just) predates glee but was inspired by the BBC Choir programme, so that might be another factor in the popularity of community non-church choirs.townmousehttp://cityexile.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-33251320554599778852010-06-30T20:58:55.100+01:002010-06-30T20:58:55.100+01:00@Melissa. Welcome to the blog and thanks for your...@Melissa. Welcome to the blog and thanks for your comments, but note: it's not a Brit who's not enjoying Journey, it's an American, me. And I haven't claimed that the British don't like to sing--to the contrary, I've said that I know a lot more Englishpeople who belong to choirs than Americans!lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-66360989655338827642010-06-30T20:11:47.079+01:002010-06-30T20:11:47.079+01:00I've just read this blog for the first time an...I've just read this blog for the first time and found the intense debate over the definition of "show choir" and its geographic prevalence fascinating.<br /><br />At my Phoenix, Arizona suburban high school, Show Choir was the fun choir for everyone who liked to sing, but didn't want to sing old stodgy songs. Actually, an old-style choir didn't even exist anymore. There was a lot of overlap with kids who were also in drama/theater and in band. (We didn't have an orchestra program.)<br />The artistic highlight of the year was the spring musical.<br /><br />I was in a church kids' choir growing up, but see almost no link whatsoever to the fact that kids (not me) joined high school show choir. I think Americans just like to sing. Maybe it's as foreign a phenomenon to Brits as the game soccer/football seems to be to many Americans?<br /><br />I'm really intrigued by the hostility towards Journey and other songs about dreams, ambition, and finding oneself. Just last night, I attended a children's musical review on Steven Schwartz, and realized that most of the songs were on that very topic. Why don't Brits enjoy this?Melissanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-14376704147607788012010-06-30T15:51:38.369+01:002010-06-30T15:51:38.369+01:00Robbie said "Glee club" to me conjures u...Robbie said<i> "Glee club" to me conjures up a group of US male university students, circa 1900s-1920s, singing the Whiffenpoof Song. It doesn't at all suggest a high school chorus group.</i><br /><br />Well, when I was in High School in upstate NYS in the late 1960s, I was in a male high school chorus group. And, BTW, we sang the Whiffenpoof Song, among other songs.<br /><br />There are university glee clubs, vocal groups for males and for females, though generally (in my experience) not mixed. And yes, non-religious community choirs in the US as well.<br /><br />I watch Glee. I like Glee. (And Neil Patrick Harris was great!) The "show choir" aspect of the show is not what I thought of as a "glee club". But things change, so I wasn't feeling fussy about the nomenclature.Roger Owen Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05298172138307632062noreply@blogger.com