tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post9118253386098683143..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: River X, X Riverlynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger74125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-87437716410693310042023-08-31T16:35:47.281+01:002023-08-31T16:35:47.281+01:00In the case of Cambridge, the town name came first...In the case of Cambridge, the town name came first and then the River's name (originally the Granta) changed to match it. See: https://www.varsity.co.uk/features/8856lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-10801384623925549292023-08-31T13:57:52.861+01:002023-08-31T13:57:52.861+01:00Your article mentions "the River Cam" as...Your article mentions "the River Cam" as a modern example. Does that mean it was previously called The River Of Cam?<br /><br />Does that mean that Cam is a place? How does that relate to the name Cambridge (bridge over the Cam)? It all feels very self referential to me!Podhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04168325211030376236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-24835539506081847742020-08-22T11:04:12.486+01:002020-08-22T11:04:12.486+01:00This was a particularly apposite post to have enco...This was a particularly apposite post to have encountered so shortly after - in a conversation with my brother - he mentioned the way in which the word 'County' precedes the name of the place when referring to 'County Durham' and the counties on the island of Ireland whereas it follows in the case of the counties of the United States, unless there are one or two exceptions about which I do not know! <br /><br />That idea where a British English speaker refers to 'River X' but 'X Brook' is (sort of!) reflected in the Czech Republic and Slovakia. I say "sort of" since I cannot imagine there being many instances where a Czech speaker would put 'Řeka' or a Slovak speaker 'Rieka' in front of river names when talking of rivers generally - although, if it ever did occur, I'm fairly sure that it would precede - but in both cases the word 'Potok' ('Brook'/'Stream' etc.) would follow the name when talking of less substantial water-courses and would actually be uttered. <br /><br />So, in Slavonic languages, where there is no concept of articles, as far as I am aware, one doesn't even get an equivalent of 'The' with the river names, let alone an equivalent of the word 'River', either preceding or following!<br /><br />Finally, this observation of yours points out that a street plan of Bratislava I have must have been printed with an American English-speaking audience in mind, since 'Dunaj' is translated as 'Danube River', which sounds really strange to me!Christopher Bentleyhttps://en.gravatar.com/girlsofthegoldeneastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-4259778968366602232017-05-22T19:33:59.093+01:002017-05-22T19:33:59.093+01:00Lynne, you might be interested to know that Swedis...Lynne, you might be interested to know that Swedish also calls rivers "å". That could be an outdated finlandssvensk thing though, as that is what some rivers are called here in Finland (for example the Vandaå or River Vantaa near me). "Älv" is also found in Finland.Ian Mac Eochagáinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08807587737403861042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-8548078375183457592017-05-22T19:29:29.063+01:002017-05-22T19:29:29.063+01:00I remember seeing an American TV programme which h...I remember seeing an American TV programme which had someone go to County Durham and they put "Durham County" on screen. That made me laugh. The American producers had clearly presumed that it worked the same way as in the US.Ian Mac Eochagáinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08807587737403861042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-8263851175418514872017-05-13T01:52:21.582+01:002017-05-13T01:52:21.582+01:00Keeping in mind that the Rio Grande is called in M...Keeping in mind that the Rio Grande is called in Mexico (and along part of the American side as well) "Rio Bravo del Norte."Annie D. Strattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03108982118831686821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-21760304699120682512017-05-13T01:45:42.735+01:002017-05-13T01:45:42.735+01:00Here in Vermont, we have a joke that is based in r...Here in Vermont, we have a joke that is based in reality. When the Dutch settled in the Hudson basin, which extends to the Vermont border, they pointed to the river and asked the Natives "What is that called?" Answer "Batten" "Ah, the Dutch said, Batten Kill, and wrote it on their maps. Then the English came along and took over. Pointing to the river, they asked "What is that called?" "Batten Kill". "Ah, Batten Kill River", the English said, and wrote it on their maps. And so it remains to this day: the Batten Kill River (River River River), which arises in Vermont and flows into New York state. I wonder how many other river rivers there are. <br /><br />Another note about AmE names of rivers: Very significatn rivers seem to be regarded as entities unto themselves, and like the Thames of London, referred to as simply the Hudson, the Mississippi, the Missouri, the Ohio, the Monongahela, the Columbia, the Colorado, the Sacramento. My observation is that this has less to do with size than it does with how it defines the surrounding landscape. Annie D. Strattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03108982118831686821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-16134518297902297752015-03-28T10:26:01.624+00:002015-03-28T10:26:01.624+00:00This post is years late for this thread but Lynne ...This post is years late for this thread but Lynne referred me to the thread when I raised something with her.<br /><br />Reading the thread and thinking a bit about it, I go with Anonymous of 02 September, 2010. I think he/she is onto something.<br /><br />In the old world, the name came first. Often it's older than the language we now use. Some river names are said to go back to languages that have been lost and forgotten. So the name is the noun and 'River' is an optional adjective. The sentence makes perfectly good sense without it. Nobody needs to tell us that the Thames or the Severn is a river.<br /><br />It would make sense that in the new world, the name is more likely to be seen as an adjective. It was given second, to something that was already a river. You might not have to put the word 'River' into the sentence, but once you do, the name has to go first.<br /><br />I too agree that in Thames River Authority,as a speaker of BrEng, Thames is an adjective qualifying River Authority.<br /><br />I was also told off as a child for referring to Lake Windermere.<br /><br />Coniston is sort of regularly irregular, since Coniston Water appears to get its name because it is next to the village called Coniston rather than the other way round.Drunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-71614655039839018362014-07-31T18:13:57.610+01:002014-07-31T18:13:57.610+01:00Late comment. My fave in UK. Is the River Avon dow...Late comment. My fave in UK. Is the River Avon down here in the Westcountry. It starts in Wales & the Welsh for river is Avon (pr. ahvv-on). Doesn't take much to see that this is a double named river! The avon afon.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10830320891404684967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-16158673693537380832012-10-18T00:21:58.422+01:002012-10-18T00:21:58.422+01:00I live near St. Louis, on the Mississippi(River) a...I live near St. Louis, on the Mississippi(River) and we NEVER call it the Mississippi River, we either say the Mississippi, or the River, as in "I have to drive over the River to get to work" (I live on the Illinois side of the River)Mindynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-25968254549384140492011-03-18T21:10:02.521+00:002011-03-18T21:10:02.521+00:00@Pascal, Julie and the commentators on German usag...@Pascal, Julie and the commentators on German usage: I can think of only one exception to the German rule that there is never an explicit word for river in a river name, whether the river is a Fluss or a Strom: der Sankt-Lorenz-Strom always has Strom as part of its name.<br /><br />It's really funny, looking at the German wikipedia's long list of examples of rivers that are Ströme, to see them all without a term for river, except the St. Lawrence.nycguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02799769428539687855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-57511841717382421622011-01-29T23:41:17.434+00:002011-01-29T23:41:17.434+00:00I live in British Columbia at the confluence of th...I live in British Columbia at the confluence of the Kickinghorse and the Columbia. Above town is Mount Seven. The Blaeberry Valley is referred to here as "the Blaeberry." Down valley is Lake Windermere. People tend to leave "river" off the name here. There is the usual mix of Lake X and X lake. All this is fascinating stuff.<br />In Ontario there are Port Stanley, Port Dover, etc.<br />In my childhood in Nova Scotia I spent time at a cottage on Lochaber Lake (Lake Aber Lake!. There are places there like Fortress Louisbourg, Annapolis Royal, Thorburn, Cape Blomidon, etc.<br />This would definitely be a great subject for a scholastic paper.Charlene Fairchildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03532057006442491444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-7235477862525038242010-10-23T03:20:07.408+01:002010-10-23T03:20:07.408+01:00Here in Canada, I've only ever heard X River i...Here in Canada, I've only ever heard X River in my area. <br /><br />Living in London, Ontario, we all say that we sit on the forks of the Thames River as apposed to the River Thames. Of course, the original settlers may just have been trying to be different from their bigger cousin. Of course, settling on the forks of a river called the Thames and calling yourself London doesn't hint towards originality.Amynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-88037143816252315422010-09-28T01:08:33.529+01:002010-09-28T01:08:33.529+01:00Yes, I think that's it. American rivers were n...Yes, I think that's it. American rivers were named within historic memory, and the names are treated as adjectives. <br /><br />The American River in California is an odd case: while California was still part of Mexico, it was named, in Spanish, 'Rio de los Americanos." The translation into English effectively changed the meaning.Juliehttp://www.julieannmaahs.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-12064263896965121862010-09-02T14:35:25.584+01:002010-09-02T14:35:25.584+01:00I'm not sure whether it's too late to leav...I'm not sure whether it's too late to leave a comment here, but I think I may have the answer.<br /><br />In Britain, normal usage is just to use the name of the river, the Thames, The Severn etc. So although it is a noun on its own, adding 'River' is using it as an adjective. So it goes in front of the name.<br /><br />The exception 'the London River' for the Thames demonstrates this. The river's name is the Thames and everyone knows this. So in that context, 'river' is being used as a noun and London as an adjective.<br /><br />It would be natural for a British speaker of English to use the same convention of rivers elsewhere in the world, the Amazon, the Nile, the Mississippi, the Colorado, the Hudson, in each case on their own.<br /><br />I suspect US usage might derive from the name originally being the adjective and the river being the noun, as in "Big River, Little River, the Russian River, and Ten Mile River". They were rivers before they had names, whereas ours have had names since before time.<br /><br />The fact that Irish usage is the same as UK usage would support this reasoning.<br /><br />I'd definitely agree that in Thames River Authority, Thames is an adjective qualifying River Authority, since there are various other River Authorities, Conservancy Boards etc covering different river systems.<br /><br />On Windermere, I can recall being told off as a child for saying Lake Windermere. 'It's just Windermere, because 'mere' already means 'lake'.<br /><br />Mind the same also applies to Avon, but that's a different language.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-20915857770707302642010-08-30T10:32:20.294+01:002010-08-30T10:32:20.294+01:00well, I'd agree that German speakers use just ...well, I'd agree that German speakers use just the name of the river: der Rhein, die Donau, der Kongo,...<br /><br />In school I learnt River X as we were taught BE. But I believe that X River comes more naturally for German speakers. We use compounds for other things in nature, like lakes (See in German: Lake Constance becomes the Bodensee and Lago di Garda becomes Gardasee. Similarly, German mountains are often (but not always) named X mountain - Xberg, but never Mount X. So X river follows this pattern but River X does not. Although the translation of the tourist board might well depend on the particular translator they chose for the job...Julienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-81115091590548749262010-08-23T01:25:52.567+01:002010-08-23T01:25:52.567+01:00It appears that there is a lot of regional variati...It appears that there is a lot of regional variation in lake naming patterns across the U.S. The examples cited in the post strike my ear as exceptions - growing up in the lake-rich Great Lakes region, I consider X lake to be the dominant form and Lake X to be an anomaly (although all of the Great Lakes - Superior, Michigan, Ontario, Erie and Huron are so named).<br /><br />Happily, I have a source to verify my hunches: "Wisconsin Lakes", a compilation of vital statistics published by the wisconsin department of natural resources in 2001 (PUB-FH-800). <br /><br />Acoording to this handy book, the state of Wisconsin has 6,044 named lakes. By my count there are only 28 lakes that follow the Lake X pattern (including lakes that are named in french, e.g. Lac Vieux Desert and Lac Sault Dore, but making no attempt to check for double entries due to lakes forming part of a county boundary). <br /><br />As an aside, The five most common lake names in wisconsin, collectively accounting for 344 lakes, are Mud Lake, Bass Lake, Long Lake, Spring Lake and Lost Lake.kiwiannanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-82977907801166554712010-08-19T14:47:45.670+01:002010-08-19T14:47:45.670+01:00As a native speaker of German, I've never hear...As a native speaker of German, I've never heard "Donaufluss", "Rheinfluss" etc. and they sound very strange to me - even in a poetic context. I wouldn't add "Fluss" to a river's name at all unless I thought the person I was talking to might not know that it was a river, in which case I would say "der Fluss Rhein".<br />As a speaker of British English (it's what I learned at school and I have lived in England), I'd definitely parse "Thames River Authority" as "Thames [River Authority]".Hannahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-32812334524863955092010-08-17T17:40:33.979+01:002010-08-17T17:40:33.979+01:00You happen to have been mentioned in my blog today...You happen to have been <a href="http://www.rogerogreen.com/2010/08/17/e-is-for-english-language/" rel="nofollow">mentioned in my blog</a> today, with a specific mention of this post.Roger Owen Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05298172138307632062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-91790010825134925142010-08-12T04:07:42.595+01:002010-08-12T04:07:42.595+01:00@ Mrs Redboots
@ Gary McQueen
@ sprhoyle
Thanks t...@ Mrs Redboots<br />@ Gary McQueen<br />@ sprhoyle<br /><br />Thanks to all three of you for your responses! I have to say that I like the long list of local terms. (It reminds me of the "American fruit desserts" section of the Joy of Cooking, full of grunts and slumps and brown betties and pandowdies.)<br /><br />It's interesting that quite of the few of the Scottish terms mentioned, based on Wikipedia (and the comment by @ townmouse) seem to take the form of X Burn or X Water, much like all the American stream terms tend to do.<br /><br />And "river" can definitely be of many different sizes in North America as well. The one in my hometown is only about 3 feet deep at this time of year -- but it's part of the Mississippi system, so by the time that water is 2000 miles downstream at New Orleans, there's a lot more of it.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03775279072826816185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-41165274976401485592010-08-11T23:56:17.796+01:002010-08-11T23:56:17.796+01:00If it's a description, it usually comes before...If it's a description, it usually comes before the noun. I always smile when I go through the Coast Range and see the leash-warning signs from the "County of Lake," posted on the shore of Clear Lake. I hope no one calls it "Lake Clear." <br /><br />On the other hand, "County of Mendocino," and "County of Sacramento" seem quite reasonable. Those are names, not descriptions.<br /><br />I'm sure there are exceptions, but I would not expect to see a "Mount Cloudy," but a "Cloudy Mountain."<br /><br />But it's Mount Shasta, Mount Lassen and Lake Tahoe. I don't know why it's Folsom Lake, and not Lake Folsom. It's a reservoir, but right below it is the much smaller Lake Natoma. Both are on the American River, whose name is an awkward translation from the Spanish "Rio de los Americanos." <br /><br />In normal usage "river" and "mount(ains)" are commonly dropped, but they're always used in newspaper articles and the like, even local ones. The Mississippi might be an occasional exception to that.Juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14376545097377854998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-13768826663580417792010-08-11T04:01:17.117+01:002010-08-11T04:01:17.117+01:00We in Louisiana tend to use XX Name per French and...We in Louisiana tend to use XX Name per French and Spanish standards for bodies of water, e.g. Bayou Teche, Lake Maurepas. "Bayou" is closely equivalent to "river", and those with "River" in the name likely started in another state and retain their AmE naming conventions (e.g. Mississississippi River, which I believe is only ever called "the Mississippi" or "the River"). Still, I recall that even where a river has such in its name, people in francophone areas may use River X, e.g. River Mermentau, when bothering to say "river" at all.alaihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09135654847309053758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-57030295463536229912010-08-09T17:10:24.691+01:002010-08-09T17:10:24.691+01:00@biggerbox
According to the wikipedia the Thames ...@biggerbox<br /><br />According to the wikipedia the Thames River was called any number of things in the past, namely the Pequot River, Frisius River, Great River of Pequot, Little Fresh River, Mohegan River, New London River, and Pequod River. Though I'll admit as someone from Massachusetts the only one I've heard before is the Pequot River and that only in history class when talking about the Pequot War/massacre.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14708599658301706496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-54034013108209670242010-08-09T17:10:04.319+01:002010-08-09T17:10:04.319+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14708599658301706496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-86320272524753312562010-08-09T14:51:18.383+01:002010-08-09T14:51:18.383+01:00@Gary McQueen - interesting. Since moving to Dumfr...@Gary McQueen - interesting. Since moving to Dumfriesshire, I've not heard anyone refer to a stream as a beck but I'll keep an ear out. I have noticed that smaller rivers (larger than a burn) do often get called 'something Water' rather than river; my favourite is the rather disconcertingly named 'Eweswater' which I don't think reflects its original source... (and it's definitely a river here, rather than a lake as seems to be the case in the Lake district if the other commenters are anything to go by)townmousehttp://cityexile.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com