tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post114976216588356310..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: (h)erbs and (h)aitcheslynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-23148574134623815412022-06-07T04:07:39.355+01:002022-06-07T04:07:39.355+01:00Yes that’s how we Americans say it. As long as I’m...Yes that’s how we Americans say it. As long as I’m talking about herbs…. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-60949163834577671652021-03-26T20:30:35.516+00:002021-03-26T20:30:35.516+00:00I know it's been years, but your smug attitude...I know it's been years, but your smug attitude about the "right" way to speak irks me. Tell me, in all your British superiority, how do you pronounce "hour", "honest", and "honor"? Certainly someone learned like yourself doesn't drop the "h" in these circumstances either?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-28196841413386631342020-08-15T13:30:00.923+01:002020-08-15T13:30:00.923+01:00native rhotic Brit speaker, proscriptivist, but ni...native rhotic Brit speaker, proscriptivist, but nice with it...<br />’t’s funny to think some Americans should be amused by the Br.Eng. usage of “reckon”. I wasn’t previously aware of that. I’ve come to use it in my speech in the last couple of decades, but not before. It would’ve sounded odd to me, contrived.<br />This thread exposes lots of stuff, perhaps, primarily the proscriptive vs descriptive view of acceptable norms of speech. My position is that of someone who likes norms, but protests at being called a grammar “Nazi”, a ludicrous and insulting (to the victims) devaluation of the word. <br />There’s no way I’d object to ‘erb/s, given its origin, although it sounds quirky and odd to me, but I can’t help thinking that the pronunciation “bayzil” initially may have sprung from the mis-pronunciation by a non-native English speaker and like bad money displacing good, spread that way. There’s no logic to my distaste for the pronunciation, it just causes me to suck in breath through my closed teeth, is all. (Note affected U.S. folksy use of “is all”). Likewise Eye-raq and Eye-ran seem to me the product of mistake.<br />Or’egano vs ore’gano, I live in Spain and use both pronunciations, so far never heard ore’gayno (eek!).<br />To the Anon who complained about lazyfication of Spanish place-names in the States, I have no sympathy. The Spanish mouth uses more muscle in forming the vowels, of which there are five and five only, but relaxes the mouth for the consonants, as the words are awfully long and otherwise the sentences would take forever. The English mouth is lazy and stress-timed, rather than syllable-timed, so I reckon Murrification is to be expected.<br />Haitch vs aitch: brought up in the Scottish education system, I heard some haitch-speakers occasionally, not aware of the Irish connection; I use aitch but could be persuade haitch makes more sense. It could be hypercorrection, like my gran in Darlington in the ’60’s saying “butcher”, she pronounced it buch as in such or much -er, as I suspect she believed the bootcher pronunciation was a Northernism, and she wanted to sound proper. I can’t remember gran’pa saying it that way or correcting her, maybe he thought it better just to stay schtum..(is that a Britishism from Yiddish or German or do Murricans say it too?)<br />An/a historic: I use both, probably half-omitting the h when I use an. An hotel: never, always a.<br />Oh, and another thing, I grew up saying soot for suit, my father always said syoot. New is pronounced noo in some parts of East Anglia and I’ve heard moozik too, although the latter is prob’ly thought of as more hick than is noo. My point is, language changes, Brits never used to “fill out” forms; that would be reserved for a body-proud woman in a tight dress, medication used to be medicine. Okay…life is change…but fawning neophilia is a bit ickky, and Brits we tend to slavishly pick up the Americanisms forgetting that English use is International, and there’s (is that ok to say, for euphony?) a lot of non U.S. English speakers out there.<br />I disagree with this b/w rhotic/non-rhotic distinction. I hear it a range. To my ear, modern Southern English (Lily Allen) sounds alien. In the rest of the UK there’s degrees of narrowing of the mouth gap, especially in Scotland, and it irks me to read the IPA codes for UK pron. as being 100% non-rhotic. I do not concur. I was struck in a Californian McDonald’s at the rhoticity of the background murmur of conversation, distinctly more than I’m used to: why then do Americans say err for error and meer for mirror? Doesn’t fit in with their otherwise perfect command of the syllable r. “Eeee, there’s nowt so queer as folk” as my mum (from Lancashire) used to say, (not “folks” BTW, the word is “folk” ok?). She also used to say “the whole world’s queer bar thee and me, and even thee’s a little queer”. Words change…I’d like to say “gay” reinstated too..<br /><br />nikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09920524854570160493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-41662205799204808932019-04-20T16:56:59.375+01:002019-04-20T16:56:59.375+01:00BrE, mid 60s, Scot. very late again, still fascina...BrE, mid 60s, Scot. very late again, still fascinated by old posts. I definitely perceive a fairly dramatic rise in the use of the haitch pronunciation, and it often seems to be used by the same people who use whilst instead of while. Any statistics to back this up?Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-68381981021600936082017-04-17T05:08:50.539+01:002017-04-17T05:08:50.539+01:00The dropping of H and adding of H is common for ma...The dropping of H and adding of H is common for many French Canadian English speakers of English as a second language. It is quite common to hear someone remark about the "hair conditioning being to I" or how their "air is getting frizzy in the moist hair outside." Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-3174455794533124722014-04-09T16:39:54.778+01:002014-04-09T16:39:54.778+01:00Don Edwards
(Aside: has there been a blog entry o...Don Edwards<br /><br /><i>(Aside: has there been a blog entry on the names of meals? Lunch, dinner, supper, et cetera?) </i><br /><br />See <a href="http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.co.uk/2008/02/high-tea.html" rel="nofollow">high tea</a>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-67765872967300803622014-04-09T16:00:24.070+01:002014-04-09T16:00:24.070+01:00In reply to anonymous on 26 October, 2008 20:06:
...In reply to anonymous on 26 October, 2008 20:06:<br /><br />I have lived almost my entire life in the western US, and the last few years spread over the western 2/3 and southeast quarter of the country, and the only place I have ever encountered any of the Americanisms you denounced so rudely was in Indiana (where, in particular, r's get inserted in a surprising number of words: people there warsh their supper dishes).<br /><br />(Aside: has there been a blog entry on the names of meals? Lunch, dinner, supper, et cetera?) <br /><br />Perhaps these oddities are more common in the northeast of the country; I've spent very little time there.<br /><br />Aside from the near-universal NON-insertion of r's in Spanish-origin names, you might also want to consider that Americans get their Spanish pronunciations from Mexican-Spanish, Cuban-Spanish, and Puerto-Rican-Spanish rather than Spanish-Spanish. Further, when a word is lifted from one language and transplanted in another, it often gets modified according to the norms and standards of its new home. "Pasta" in Italy is an Italian word, but in the US it's an English word of Italian origin.Don Edwardshttp://alienamerica.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-43547083058180014152014-01-06T15:47:39.316+00:002014-01-06T15:47:39.316+00:00http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmlyxqVxVxQ&nor...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmlyxqVxVxQ&noredirect=1Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-79221780149031949732013-07-05T20:24:43.947+01:002013-07-05T20:24:43.947+01:00My mother, British and in her 80s, often says &quo...My mother, British and in her 80s, often says "yarbs" for "herbs". I'm not sure if she thinks this is correct, or if she thinks it's a Sussex word (it might well be). She also frequently says "yowes" for "ewes" (female sheep), which I pronounce as "yous".Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-32029846632263901242013-03-29T14:27:27.718+00:002013-03-29T14:27:27.718+00:00It is interesting about haitches - In past generat...It is interesting about haitches - In past generations, in the islands outside Stockholm, it was part of the local accent to insert "h" in some words starting with wovels, (not with "h") - and strip other words of their leading "h". It somehow probably worked out to the same number of "h", just in different words.<br /><br />Some south Indian accents probably have a similar issue, would use the haitch pronounciation frequently. They have a special way of pronouncing "A" - like "Yaie".<br /><br />Russian speakers seem to replace leading "H" with "G", in most foreign words.<br /><br />I bet there are a few similar local habits in many other countries as well.<br /><br />Thanks for teaching me about Cilantro.<br /><br />And I am sure that the Palma Ham was not from Parma, if at all they can make it locally.Johan Fägerskiöldnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-13639515933081303752012-10-22T22:04:24.691+01:002012-10-22T22:04:24.691+01:00David, re your
palmer ~ Parma
A parallel to th...David, re your <br /><br />palmer ~ Parma <br /><br />A parallel to this is the way so many (non-rhotic) Britons are convinced they ate "Palma ham" while on holiday in Mallorca.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10718209592445394736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-65769467046010409432012-10-22T12:42:40.912+01:002012-10-22T12:42:40.912+01:00Just a parsing fancy...
Oo-er, David (the r is si...Just a parsing fancy...<br /><br />Oo-er, David (the r is silent BTW) -- it looks like I've been pronouncing "parse" incorrectly all my life! ...or at least during the 50+ years since I last had to parse sentences at school. <br /><br />British dictionaries do give the "pahz" pronunciation that you (and very other British speaker?) use, American ones give "parss". <br /><br />It's odd that when I was at school (in England) "parse" rhymed with "sparse", or is that just me losing it?Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10718209592445394736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-75922233832049403452012-10-22T01:07:05.414+01:002012-10-22T01:07:05.414+01:00vp
This is fun. Some are quite dull such as:
alms...vp<br /><br />This is fun. Some are quite dull such as:<br /><i>alms ~arms<br />spa ~ spar<br />Ta! ~ tar<br />Bah! ~ bar</i><br /><br />But others form agreeably unlikely pairs:<br /><br /><i>palmer ~ Parma <br />calmer ~ karma<br />balmy ~ barmy</i> — one that really can cause confusion<br /><i>ma's ~ Mars<br />Mali ~ Marley<br />Mahdi ~ mardy</i><br /><br />There's also the South African <i>laager mentality</i>. OK, I never seriously believed it was the result of drinking too much German-style beer. But I did — wrongly — assume that the circle of wagons was the same sort of safe container as the <i>lager</i> used for secure storage in brewing.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-27069163961658629582012-10-21T20:56:28.469+01:002012-10-21T20:56:28.469+01:00@kevin, @David Crosbie,
A minimal pair for nonrho...@kevin, @David Crosbie,<br /><br />A minimal pair for nonrhotic, BATH-broadening accents is<br /><br />calve - carve<br /><br />Also<br /><br />aunt - aren't <br /><br />(although aunt has the "broad" pronunciation in some accents that don't generally have BATH-broadening).vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-59352124279722994112012-10-21T20:55:13.604+01:002012-10-21T20:55:13.604+01:00@kevin, @David Crosbie,
A minimal pair for nonrho...@kevin, @David Crosbie,<br /><br />A minimal pair for nonrhotic, BATH-broadening accents is<br /><br />calve - carve<br /><br />Also<br /><br />aunt - aren't <br /><br />(although aunt has the "broad" pronunciation in some accents that don't generally have BATH-broadening).vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-33477653930214246682012-10-21T17:58:16.226+01:002012-10-21T17:58:16.226+01:00Kevin
this has the effect of making, say, "...Kevin<br /><br /><i> this has the effect of making, say, "parse" and "pass" rhyme (both pronounced "pahss" in the case of so-called RP British English).</i><br /><br />The only RP pronunciation of <i>parse</i> I've ever heard is PAHZ. In John Well's <i>Longman Pronunciation Dictionary</i> PAHZ is given as the main pronunciation and PAHS as an secondary alternative.<br /><br />If you asked me to PAHS a sentence, I couldn't begin to guess what you meant.<br /><br />There's a pair with similar spelling that <b>do</b> rhyme in a particularly old-fashioned style of RP. My mother completely lost her Welsh accent when she invested in elocution lessons. <br /><br />(They paid off. Without any qualifications she stayed in well-paid work in the 1930's — work where a regional accent would have ruled her out.)<br /><br />With a perfectly straight face, she would revere to someone as <i>a silly ass</i> meaning a donkey but sounding like something else.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-91921399830990641762012-10-20T01:16:15.499+01:002012-10-20T01:16:15.499+01:00Thanks Kevin, I did not think of the non rhotic as...Thanks Kevin, I did not think of the non rhotic aspect. Although it stillseems strange that when trying to prononce in letters anon would type th r if it is not part of the sound. <br /><br />On the subject of Italian Pasta pronunciation, I live in a prodominatly Italian town, and know several who are from the old contry and they definatly say it pahstah. <br /><br />As for Taco, I would not know about the spanrards, but would the Mexicans say tahko also. <br /><br />Fun little fact My Italian cousin is marred to a Mexican.<br /><br />Again, Thanks for your insight Kevin.<br />Mindynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9970475341525050902012-10-18T18:56:24.869+01:002012-10-18T18:56:24.869+01:00@Mindy
Mr/s "parss-ta" Anonymous is let...@Mindy<br /><br />Mr/s "parss-ta" Anonymous is letting his/her (let's assume "his") non-rhoticity show.<br /><br />While not defending the rant element in his post (I don't think we're here to tell others how they "should" pronounce their own language/dialect), I can at least explain his attempted phonetic spelling as a reflection of the fact that Anon. speaks a variety of English (known as non-rhotic) where the letter gets pronounced only before a vowel: this has the effect of making, say, "parse" and "pass" rhyme (both pronounced "pahss" in the case of so-called RP British English).<br /><br />So, in writing "parss-ta" he is, in fact, agreeing with you that you say the word as "pahstah". It's a trap speakers of non-rhotic British English often fall into: using "ar" to represent "ah" -- owing to the fact, to give another example, that they pronounce "far" as "fah" in "Is it far?" (although forgetting that they put the r back, because of the following vowel, in "Is it far away?").<br /><br />All of that said, it is true (though I'm not criticizing the fact!) that Americans do pronounce the originally Italian word with a "long" a (as in "ah, yes" while Britons say it with a "short" one: "passta" (first "a" as in "cat").<br /><br />I think that has to do with the American tendency to use "ah" for "a" in all words seen to be foreign. Compare American English "Vietnahm" with British English "Vietnamm". Or, to take another food item (taco): AE tah-ko, BE tack-o. <br /><br />I know that the "a" in Italian "pasta" and in Spanish "taco" is in fact neither the American "ah" nor the British "a(t)", but to us Britons they do SOUND -- probably because they are short sounds -- far more like "a(t)" than "ah" (which tends to be quite a long sound in British English).Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10718209592445394736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-74016934318526913552012-10-17T21:15:57.421+01:002012-10-17T21:15:57.421+01:00ANONYMOUS SAID:
Las Vegas should be pronounced LA...ANONYMOUS SAID:<br /> Las Vegas should be pronounced LASS VEY-GAS, and not LORSS VEY-GAS. This occurs in their pronunciations of 'Miami' (MY-AMMEE instead of MEE-YAMI), Santa Barbara (BAR-BERUH instead of BAR-BAR-RA) and Los Alamos (LOSS ALAMOES instead of LOSS ALAMOSS). The same goes for their pronunciation of 'pasta', correctly PASS-TA. They of course pronounce this PARSS-TA,<br /><br /> what the heck is this anonymous guy talking about? I am an American and I have NEVER said LORSS VEY-GAS it is Loss VayGus, Nor have I ever referred to Pasta as Parss-ta, it is pahstah. As for Miami I say it the way he does. not sure about Los Alamos, neither sound right to me, I would say the alamo:)Mindynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-63571782224240364912012-01-24T06:49:12.686+00:002012-01-24T06:49:12.686+00:00Mitt Romney's latest political ad against Newt...Mitt Romney's latest political ad against Newt Gingrich is interesting. It quotes Gingrich claiming (ludicrously) to have been lavishly compensated by Freddie Mac as "a historian". The announcer then says sarcastically:<br /><br />"AN historian?"<br /><br />(my emphasis).<br /><br /><br />http://mittromney.com/embed/video/florida-families<br /><br />It's only 30 seconds long.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-85134963690286317732012-01-02T16:21:14.100+00:002012-01-02T16:21:14.100+00:00In reply James Helgeson's comment just above: ...In reply James Helgeson's comment just above: Ah, that explains the pronunciation, which for me (American with Italian heritage) has an ih, not an eh, in the second syllable.<br /><br />More generally, I'm surprised by the comments about being educated in "an" versus "a". Didn't we all (native English speakers) learn that when learning to speak, before are education began? Oh, I remember being told the difference between the two words. But I wouldn't call that being educated. More like, hearing explicitly something I already knew, along with learning the spelling that matches those words I already knew.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-32610743301231313592011-09-25T16:52:21.630+01:002011-09-25T16:52:21.630+01:00The Italians pronounce it as the Americans do, wit...The Italians pronounce it as the Americans do, with the accent on the second syllable. It's spelled 'origano' in Italian.James Helgesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09848588002606047668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-19942243797906680092011-08-21T00:03:15.468+01:002011-08-21T00:03:15.468+01:00My education was quite consistent - A before a con...My education was quite consistent - A before a consonant, AN before a vowel. Since H is sometimes a consonant and sometimes silent, it follows that if you pronounce the H, you don't use AN. A hotel, a hospital, an hour, an honour, an aitch. 'Haitch' wasn't actually taught, but the class concensus was that it was wrong - the one guy in the class who said 'haitch' got the mick taken.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18098587142108525189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-82998230674773432202011-02-04T19:38:52.645+00:002011-02-04T19:38:52.645+00:00Anon (you know which one) made me laugh rather a l...Anon (you know which one) made me laugh rather a lot. These pretentious people always manage to have basic errors while lecturing the rest of us on what is "correct". Other than the weirdly various spellings of "aitch", anon couldn't even get "its" right, using an apostrophe for a possessibe. I was actually considering a post pointing out their incorrectnesses, but decided they would just carry on with their nose in the air and insist everyone else was uneducated anyway.Cameron MacDonald Gazzola Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11460898271918397890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-17159977708167189072011-02-01T01:03:11.947+00:002011-02-01T01:03:11.947+00:00The BBC loved to use the phrase "an historic ...The BBC loved to use the phrase "an historic moment" in news coverage when I lived in Britain. Needless to say, te "h" of "historic" was pronounced emphatically.<br /><br />This managed to be pretentious in multiple ways, not only linguistically but also in pontificating on the historical significance of an event that had only just occurred.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.com