tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post2077402455941051707..comments2024-03-28T16:11:36.465+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: sarcasm and ironylynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger83125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-81794751356219697402017-12-15T05:26:08.587+00:002017-12-15T05:26:08.587+00:00I know it's been almost nine years, but I want...I know it's been almost nine years, but I wanted to say that your comment is a great description of how humor works.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05711639695190185384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-58983000563959239152016-06-12T21:54:14.475+01:002016-06-12T21:54:14.475+01:00As an American in the Midwest, I find that in my a...As an American in the Midwest, I find that in my area sarcasm tends to be more caustic and immediate. Irony tends to be more deliberated and thoughtful. <br /><br />That is to say that while sarcasm is blunt and in-your-face irony tends to be noticed more on reflection.<br /><br />We yanks definitely understand and appreciate both. (at least those of us with a multi-digit i.q. What so many of my countrymen miss is satire, but that is another topic altogether.Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-27756802808866479662016-01-04T14:09:19.174+00:002016-01-04T14:09:19.174+00:00It is absolutely NOT the case that Americans don&#...It is absolutely NOT the case that Americans don't understand irony, we just tend to use that word differently. What Brits commonly refer to as irony, to most Americans is simply flat-out sarcasm. And in that, there are many instances an American would not find it socially acceptable to use sarcasm (as in a business meeting perhaps) so when it is used, the hearer might be caught off guard and look for genuine meaning, causing the Brits to employ their usual assumption that Americans are just too dumb to get it. <br /><br />Americans more often reserve use of the term irony in reference to historical, dramatic, or situational irony. Passing, casual, verbal sarcasm (which many Americans, depending on class, region, etc would use at length) would almost never be referred to as irony.<br /><br />BTW, American living in London here....having giving quite a lot of thought and analysis to this question. As one with a fairly sarcastic sense of humor, I have even been caught of guard by the use of sarcasm in situations I would never expect, and accused of 'not getting it.'Sallyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10985982729344763970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-39946397525312466682016-01-04T13:44:20.313+00:002016-01-04T13:44:20.313+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Sallyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10985982729344763970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-83323658780961378782015-08-29T00:00:34.939+01:002015-08-29T00:00:34.939+01:00You know, it's hardly as though ''caus...You know, it's hardly as though ''cause' is exclusive to AmE, and in any case some people pronounce it rhyming with 'claws'.Sean Fearnleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15511353147572935011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-46533282195250270942014-04-15T07:08:55.217+01:002014-04-15T07:08:55.217+01:00Massachusetts-
from anonymous
This almost alway...Massachusetts-<br /><br /><br />from anonymous<br /><i> This almost always earns me an "I was being sarcastic." To which I usually have to say, "Yeah, I know. I was too."</i><br /><br />I too tend to riff on someone's sarcasm, but if they stop to explain their sarcasm I'd be heavily tempted to respond "Were you? I hadn't noticed."<br /><br />While I do define sarcasm in the more narrow dare I say true to source AmE sense, That form of sarcasm is more often insulting than funny.<br /><br />I much prefer the dry understated wit that, while found on both sides of the Atlantic seems more treasured on the right.<br /><br />I especially like making a game out of using just the right tone, emphasis and phrasing that what I say is both true and understandable if taken either literally or metaphorically, but is only fully true and understood if taken on both levels.<br /><br />Americans will sometimes overstate their sarcasm in a vain attempt at making it idiot proof, but other times they might take part in some plausible deniability. My favorite form of sarcasm is when not even the speaker themself is sure whether or to what degree they are serious. That presents the ideal form of ambiguity that even the best puns fail to achieve.<br /><br />I also get a jolt of amusement from subject object reversal playing on stock phrases and cliches.<br /><br />Some of the least funny comedians from my perspective are those who think shock humor is nothing more than calling someone an !$#$^^&% ##^%#@.<br /><br />P.S. While further comments revealed that Maggie was in fact conflating England and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (et al),<br />It was also possible in the context of her post that she incorrectly thought that England Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland each had direct membership in the EU.<br /><br />P.P.S. one source of confusion for Americans regarding the country of the United kingdom and the countries of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is that all 5 entities are considered countries. The USA is one country of many states. The concept of a country being part of another country is challenging.<br /><br />P.P.P.S.<br /><br />I wonder how denizens of " Papua New Guinea, East Timor* and portions of Indonesia"(Wikipedia) <br />feel about being Australians?(i.o.w. Do they consider themselves to be Australian as Brazilians et al consider themselves (South) American?)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02138260302522477243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-69068925205092303062013-11-08T09:44:01.320+00:002013-11-08T09:44:01.320+00:00I'm afraid as soon as I see phrases like: '...I'm afraid as soon as I see phrases like: 'over-inflated national pride'<br />or 'because in our arrogance we Brits don’t expect sarcasm'<br /><br />then I can't really take the rest of the article seriously without feeling there is an agenda going on somewhere. Some good points made but without neutrality one could believe that points will be made to back up the authors view rather than be a true study. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-61942536106590729172013-10-28T08:43:50.700+00:002013-10-28T08:43:50.700+00:00ok you made all this sound like if you British peo...ok you made all this sound like if you British people where superior than americans in any way.Oud sarcasm may be different but it doesnt mean you are better or less im so fucking tired of you british people saying you are better at everything get over you trauma of inferiority and stopd trying to make everyone think you are better when in your insides you feel inferior Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07602412023468630779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-82781711816446817722012-10-18T18:17:22.246+01:002012-10-18T18:17:22.246+01:00Oh my goodness! Why so much hostility to US Americ...Oh my goodness! Why so much hostility to US Americans calling ourselves Americans?<br />What are we supposed to call ourselves(in your opinion)? <br />In the USA, we are taught in School that we are Americans, People in Canada are Canadians, People in Mexico are Mexicans. <br />We do not have a separate term for it because The Name of our Country is not the United States, but The United States of America.Mindynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-63690742431325687362012-10-18T17:00:40.110+01:002012-10-18T17:00:40.110+01:00I would think it is more about tone. When American...I would think it is more about tone. When Americans are being sarcastic, we tend to overtone it so that the other person will understand (hopefully) that we are being sarcastic, not mean/rude. We do not want to offend people or hurt their feelings. We want them to know it is a joke, not how we truly think or feelMindynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1244099030403686992012-10-02T14:12:21.561+01:002012-10-02T14:12:21.561+01:00David Crosbie:
I wouldn't invite you to take ...David Crosbie:<br /><br />I wouldn't invite you to take me too seriously. I try not to take myself too seriously. Life's not much fun if it's too serious.<br /><br />But seriously, it's not as if I chose a post here at random to comment on denonyms. Rather I commented on this post only having read all the comments on this post about what people living in the United States and in Scotland and England and Britain and the UK should be called, triggered in part by the post's author's use of the term "USan" (a term that our host suggested her guest writer use in this post to avoid the inclusion of other Americans, specifically Canadians, that using the more generally used term American might have implied), so my commenting here, albeit late, wasn't completely off target.<br /><br />Incidentally someone who did take denonyms overly seriously might argue that AmE could cover English in Guyana, where it is an official language, but I wasn't seriously suggesting that our host should not use AmE to mean English in the United States. I was poking a wee bit of fun at the seriousness of the comments about whether American could be used to mean US-American. Sorry for having taken a piss at anyone's expense (if that's the proper way to use that BrE phrase).David Laurihttp://www.davidlauri.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-67540754945343057802012-10-02T12:10:58.050+01:002012-10-02T12:10:58.050+01:00David Lauri
Posting arguments in a thread headed ...David Lauri<br /><br />Posting arguments in a thread headed 'sarcasm and irony' doesn't exactly invite us to take you seriously. But if you are serious, there's a very practical answer. There's a great body of observed date under the headings AmE and BrE. It's easier to check perceptions against impressions than, say, comparisons between Canadian and US English or the English of England and Wales. OK, such comparisons are not impossible, but they are not the focus of interest of Lynne's blog. Not are they excluded, of course,<br /><br />Nobody in Britain uses <i>American</i> to refer to the two continents of North and South America unless it's totally clear from the context. I presume the same is true for people in the US. If we want a noun, we say <i>'the Americas'</i>.<br /><br />We do quite often use <i>American</i> to refer to the English language culture of North America — the US and Canada. I see no harm. If ever the US-Canada differences are relevant, it's perfectly easy and natural to speak of them in natural everyday English terms.<br /><br />A great many of us in Britain are intrigued by the variety of English we hear in North American media. Enough are us are interested enough to follow Lynne's blog. It's perhaps surprising that a large number of people who describe themselves as <i>'American'</i> are similarly interested in British English. <br /><br />Only rarely is some unique feature of Canadian English of particular interest. The English of South America is not even a concept.<br /><br />You may not have read the blog much. Read a bit more and you'll see that within the groups of self-proclaimed <i>'British'</i> and self-proclaimed <i>'American'</i> there's interest in relating individual experience to the two alleged norms. BrE and AmE are constantly being redefined.<br /><br />I think it's about identity. We want to belong and yet have individual differences. We want to belong to the world of English-speakers and retain individuality for the two main branches (and, of course for Australian English etc.) But we also value the differences which mark out groups by region and/or by generation within each branch. They mean we belong to something small as well as something big. We are not alone.<br /><br />Those with an objective interest in BrE/AmE differences can go to the reference works. Here on Lynne's blog the questions are <i>Where do I belong? Who are my sisters and brothers?'</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-86372149376055456592012-10-02T04:55:44.595+01:002012-10-02T04:55:44.595+01:00Being late to the game and off topic, I probably s...Being late to the game and off topic, I probably should be refraining from commenting, especially as my comments won't pertain to the subject of this post (BrE v AmE), but I found the discussion in the comments about USans and Americans and English and Scottish and British quite (AmE) interesting.<br /><br />Having traveled in Latin America I know that Spanish does have a PC term for citizens of the United States that flows rather more easily off the tongue than USan, namely "estadounidense," and perhaps that term exists because the Spanish-speaking Latin Americans feel themselves to be as American as the estadounidense.<br /><br />But having lived in Germany I know that when Germans say Amerikaner they generally mean a citizen of the United States. Yes, German too does have a PC term for US citizens, US-Amerikaner, but really Germans don't use it as much as they do just Amerikaner.<br /><br />And a Scotsman surely knows it's a lost cause to try to get the US Americans to stop claiming the general term American for the US when he can't even convince his fellow Scots (or Britons or UKers) to stop using the term American to apply only to the United States.<br /><br />Lastly I've noticed that our host here, perhaps because she herself is American, uses the tag AmE, and not USE. That could be because she's not worried about offending non-US Americans, or it could instead be because of the general awkwardness in English of referring to US American people and things without appropriating the term American. USE doesn't work at all as well as AmE because it's all capitals and US-AmE is not as easy to type as BrE, and really no one thinks she's talking about English as spoken in all of North and South America when she says AmE, right?<br /><br />Sorry for being a naughty (US-)American and fanning the flames.David Laurihttp://www.davidlauri.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-22995813685926281672011-12-07T00:36:22.411+00:002011-12-07T00:36:22.411+00:00My experience, on the contrary, is that the Englis...My experience, on the contrary, is that the English are very reluctant to critici{s/z}e anyone directly. But there's plenty of individual variation on both sides of the Atlantic. As well as lots of stereotyping!lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-30095375623398201732011-12-07T00:23:22.127+00:002011-12-07T00:23:22.127+00:00piThe English are a very moody, passive aggressive...piThe English are a very moody, passive aggressive bunch based on my experiences with the same. My friend bores easily and thinks nothing of making offhand remarks full of ridicule, contempt and meanness. To and fro's with him become a competition and honestly I think the vast swaths of water from the Atlantic separate us in many ways. Americans are taught that if we shoot our mouths off too much we'll get our clocks cleaned...the English don't seem to care if they're offensive because it's second nature to them. Find the Scots and Irish to be much more direct and but the English have an insidious, spiteful side to them that belies their inflated sense of themselves.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-46058880000962784722011-09-18T18:27:39.667+01:002011-09-18T18:27:39.667+01:00You sound like an american.You sound like an american.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-33332492662933194692009-09-11T13:29:48.238+01:002009-09-11T13:29:48.238+01:00Re: setting up a gag and omitting or subverting th...Re: setting up a gag and omitting or subverting the punchline. I thought Monty Python were the first to do this as a regular type of humour. The Flying Circus programmes are full of unfinished jokes and sketches, the most famous being the dead parrot sketch.<br /><br />I seem to recall this drew negative reactions from the more traditional crowd, so presumably it wasn't recognised at the time (1960s) as being a "proper" form of comedy.Robbienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90138418590156367492009-08-04T22:26:20.793+01:002009-08-04T22:26:20.793+01:00I didn't read all of the other comments becaus...I didn't read all of the other comments because I couldn't differentiate between those being intentionally sarcastic and those being unintentionally dull.<br /><br />I think saying "in America, there is a time and place for sarcasm" is spot on. I'm sarcastic, but I dated a girl who was always sarcastic and it drove me mad. Introductions to my family and coworkers were always awkward because they had just met her and saw her humor as disrespectful and out of line.<br /><br />Also, sarcasm can be quite insensitive or inflammatory when used at inappropriate times. One of my exes and I had just got a dog and for some reason this dog's ears were extremely sensitive to contact. My ex's roommate had invited over a male guest whom I had never met before and as he was playing with the dog, I heard her (the dog) scream in agony. I told him to be careful around her (the dog's) ears. He responded (sarcastically) "I'll make sure to pull them real hard then".<br />I didn't laugh. I thought he was an asshole. Had he been a close friend of mine, perhaps I would have appreciated his joke, but in this context he was simply obnoxious. Maybe I'm too sensitive, but I don't sarcastically rib relative strangers.Anti-Social Lifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03048719796587629337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-30001255895671439262009-07-07T23:49:43.158+01:002009-07-07T23:49:43.158+01:00As far as "I could care less" goes, I th...As far as "I could care less" goes, I think I've heard it used in a sarcastic tone, but most people do not and are generally unaware that it isn't grammatically correct. I always say "I couldn't care less," and I hear it said that way quite a bit (perhaps this is because I live in the Northeast. If it means anything, we use the "Great Lakes" dialect here in central New York State).<br /><br />Interestingly, my father tends to say "I could care!" (not with sarcasm, but usually anger/frustration) as a short form of the phrase when someone is whining to him about something. It's pretty effective.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-29630941604037656112009-06-09T13:21:51.366+01:002009-06-09T13:21:51.366+01:00The ironic humour in the premise of Hot Fuzz is pr...The ironic humour in the premise of Hot Fuzz is pretty obvious, but the film isn't just the premise. It has jokes in it too. And lots of pop culture references. And funny characters. And so on. Obviously not to everybody's taste, but that's humour for you.<br /><br />I liked it, but not as much as Shaun of the Dead, because I'm a big zombie movie fan, whereas I can take or leave buddy cop movies.<br /><br />And I'd also concur that Napoleon Dynamite was very successful over here, at least among the same sort of crowd that liked it in the US. It's one of my favourite movies of recent years.Ginger Yellowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06103410278129312943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-46946028091171209632009-06-09T05:41:55.552+01:002009-06-09T05:41:55.552+01:00Solo: That wasn't quite what I had in mind. I&...Solo: That wasn't quite what I had in mind. I'm thinking of cases in which the setup for the joke is so clear that the humor comes from the absence of the expected punchline, possibly replaced by something "straight."<br /><br />I actually just watched an old Simpsons* episode where this style of humor was used nicely. Near the beginning of the episode, cut to Bart on the phone with Principal Skinner. Skinner: "Well, as a matter of fact, my refrigerator *wasn't* running. You've spared me quite a bit of spoilage. Thank you, anonymous young man."<br /><br />The humor comes not from the traditional form but from the subversion of it. I never saw British people enjoy this kind of joke, which is why I started to think that they appreciate the traditional forms more. But maybe I'm not thinking about this the right way.<br /><br />* It's a separate theory of mine, equally unsubstantiated, that The Simpsons changed the American sense of humor. Comedy before the Simpsons feels in a way foreign to me, and I have to fight against my natural responses to find it funny.Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-57917996262772692252009-06-08T22:31:48.644+01:002009-06-08T22:31:48.644+01:00Rather than being an entirely BrE/AmE issue, I thi...Rather than being an entirely BrE/AmE issue, I think the (UK) family I married into just has more sensitive souls than the (US) one I was born into. <br /><br />In other words, we make lots of generali{s/z}ations on this blog, and if they're good generali{s/z}ations, they work in general, but not always in specific!lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-84724899802296314122009-06-08T22:22:28.940+01:002009-06-08T22:22:28.940+01:00I’ll start by saying my post wasn’t actually about...I’ll start by saying my post wasn’t actually about irony at all, I only mentioned it to say that I wasn’t going to talk about it. It’s a whole different kettle of fish. Nonetheless I would have said that “None the less the Prime Minister... hurried off... to inform the Unions' officials of this luminous solution." was sarcastic rather than ironic. In my experience "facetious" is used by adults to chastise a child for being a (BrE) smartarse/ (AmE) smart aleck (?) but yes, it could equally identify misplaced irony.<br /><br />Anyway, back to the case in hand. <br /><br />Jo and Ginger Yellow: Point taken, maybe Saint Bob was a bad example, but you get the point right? I just meant we can be ‘a bit sarcastic’- it isn’t an absolute in BrE.<br /><br />NFAH: I’d agree with Lynne, it’s that British attitude that leads to missing your use of ironicism. The leading academic thought suggests that if you expect non-literal language from people you will identify and process it far more easily. If you don’t expect it you are much more likely to mistakenly take it literally, regardless of personal aptitude or likelihood of use.<br /><br />Posters seem to be affirming my main generalisation, albeit in indirect and tangential fashion, that the AmE definition of sarcasm is very much negative and related to (BrE?) *getting at* others. @ Rick S- I hadn’t personally noticed a gender difference in sarcasm use, but all the US-based research suggests that men will use it more.<br /><br />Biochemist: I’d disagree almost entirely. I think it’s possible to be ironic without saying anything, or when saying very little, and sarcasm doesn’t have to be quick, or cheap (though it does have to be verbal yes.)<br /><br />Bill: I think the ‘comedy’ in Hot Fuzz (I, for the record, thought two hours was a long time to string out a sketch show joke) derives from the juxtaposition of big guns American action conventions and a genteel British village. But most people I know thought it was hilarious, so presumably the premise is much funnier for us.<br /><br />Martin: A lot of that rings true to me, although I’m not sure about how much Brits rely on form. Omitting the punchline is fairly common practice I’d say, trailing off at the end with something like “…and he’s an Everton [British football/soccer team] supporter so…” Is that what you meant? But I don’t think we see sarcastic interjections as disruptive in the same way, so your intuition still holds true. Food for thought, I’ll keep an ear out for it in future.<br /><br />"Obama's appointee to Great Britain, Louis Susman, speaks fluent English." I’d say this was dry wit if he does indeed speak fluent (Br)English and sarcasm if he employs a Bush-esque mangling of the mother tongue. So it depends on the writer’s personal opinion of Susman really.<br /><br />Joel: To my knowledge 'Napoleon Dynamite' was hugely popular in the UK and 'Eagle and Shark' has made a reasonable showing on DVD. Would probably describe them as ‘offbeat’ more than ironic, but that’s probably just me.<br /><br />Coal Porter: That is partly what I was trying to say. Sincerity as a national trait.<br /><br />Lynne: That surprises me, I would have thought teasing (and taking the piss) was more British than ‘USan.’ My friends and I certainly do it to each other and at work (in all my many walks of employment) I know we always do it to new people.<br /><br />As an end note, I would have to take exception to the Wikipedia {spits on ground} definition of *Taking the Piss* which misses entirely the jocularity often intended and other applications of the phrase. It’s probably the subject of an entirely new post but… if a BrE speaker were to make a joke about another person, who then took umbrage at the comment, the Brit might defend themselves by saying “Alright, I was only taking the piss.” Conversely, if you’re being messed about, say by a plumber who keeps turning up late, increasing his quotes etc, you might tell a friend “He’s just taking the piss now.” Not entirely relevant but I felt the need to mention it.Solonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-41334024381343418852009-06-07T16:43:05.094+01:002009-06-07T16:43:05.094+01:00Sorry, Lynne. (And sorry for misspelling your name...Sorry, Lynne. (And sorry for misspelling your name earlier). A final (peacemaking) word:<br /><br />I have found a page on Wikipedia which does in fact state that "Britain" can be used for the island of Great Britain AS WELL AS for the country of the UK as a whole. I have never come across that before, but am more than happy to acknowledge that Kelv and I were both right in our usage of the name Britain, and each wrong to accuse the other of being wrong.<br />http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/BritainCameronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-70523664652762490952009-06-07T16:34:43.292+01:002009-06-07T16:34:43.292+01:00If you can't play nice, I'm going to have ...If you can't play nice, I'm going to have to start deleting people. I've tolerated the off-topicness for quite a number of posts now, but have to wonder if it was an error to do so.<br /><br />Can we turn our attention back to sarcasm, please?lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.com