tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post2086937592774064418..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: (the) menopause, (the) flu, (the) hospitallynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-86114420437116459022015-12-30T15:21:25.153+00:002015-12-30T15:21:25.153+00:00Habitually, I read ALL the comments before posting...Habitually, I read ALL the comments before posting one. This time I think I'm here via a link from Fritinancy; and I'm not (re?)-reading them all.<br />It suddenly occurred to me that in the United States you could be in ANY hospital. The Veterans Hospital. Saint Joseph ['s?] Hospital, Children's Hospital, University Hospital...<br />whereas...in NHS country, hospitals are not so competitive/differently orient[at]ed, &c.<br />What do you think? <br />How many hundreds of people have proposed this excuse previously?Cataneahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07721005764933680587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-57983808243582922242015-06-19T12:51:34.977+01:002015-06-19T12:51:34.977+01:00CORRECTION
I see that something has disappeared f...CORRECTION<br /><br />I see that something has disappeared from my posting above — no doubt because I mistyped an 'angle bracket' symbol ('<' or '>').<br /><br />It should read<br /><br /> Hence<br />1(BrE) <i>The ambulance went to the hospital.</i><br />2 (BrE) <i>The injured man went to hospital.</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-36290163479769011492015-06-19T12:45:55.014+01:002015-06-19T12:45:55.014+01:00I don't mix with AmE speakers nowadays, so I t...I don't mix with AmE speakers nowadays, so I tend to base my hunches on song lyrics and memorable quotes.<br /><br />I remembered the <i>going to church</i> quote from Mahalia Jackson without difficulty, but it's taken a while to pin down this quote from the adored Black boxer Joe Louis. <br /><br />After a meteoric rise, and the total adulation of the African American population, Joe Louis suffered a shock defeat in 1936 at the glove of the avowedly Nazi Max Schmelling. His only comment was the laconic<br /><br /><i>'Me and Chappie's going back to school'.</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-15160087426533699252015-06-19T00:01:05.736+01:002015-06-19T00:01:05.736+01:00On that other thread, Dick Hartzell reacted to my ...On that other thread, Dick Hartzell reacted to my proposed [1] 'mere building' <b>countable noun</b>[2] 'activity associated with the building' <b>uncountable noun</b> explanation with<br /><br /><i>You've offered a rationale for British English that is completely silent on the matter of American English.</i><br /><br />On the contrary, I said<br /><br /><i>The American usage requires no explanation. You state the physical facts with no indication as to purpose.</i><br /><br />He also said<br /><br /><i>In any case, you might be astonished to know that American English does make the distinction between<br /><br />1 taking visitors to the market<br /><br />2 taking sheep to market</i><br /><br />Of course I'm far from astonished. This matches the AmE use of <i>to the church/to church</i> and <i>to the school/to school</i>. The difference between Br E and AmE is that we have more members of this class of nouns — including <i>hospital</i>, which is where we started.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-86431821439709160102015-06-18T17:51:42.903+01:002015-06-18T17:51:42.903+01:00I've posted on another thread that BrE recogni...I've posted on another thread that BrE recognises a set of nouns with two potential senses used in two grammatical categories. They are:<br /><br />1 <br />• referring <b>only</b> to places (usually buildings) where particular activities take place<br />• used as <b>countable nouns</b><br /><br />2 <br />• implying a primary reference to the activity associated with the building<br />• used as <b>uncountable nouns</b> — typical for so-called <b>abstract nouns</b> <br /><br />Hence<br />1(BrE) <i>The ambulance went to the hospital.</i><br />2 (BrE) <br /><br />Comparable noun-classes and nouns that I remembered were<br />• <i>school, college, university</i>, etc<br />• <i>prison, barracks</i><br />• <i>hospital</i><br /><br />I then remembered <br />• <i>market</i> — now usually a <b>virtual</b> place where buying and selling takes place<br /><br />Now I remember<br />• places of worship, certainly <i>church, chapel</i> and possibly others (although not <i>shrine, cathedral</i>. I've heard <i>to/in shool</i> (or however you spell the anglicised Yiddish), but I'm not at all sure about <i>to/in synagogue, to/in temple, to/in mosque</i><br /><br />Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe AmE can make distinctions such as<br /><br />1. <i>The mortician's vehicle drove to the church.</i> (or whatever the AmE is for <i>undertaker's hearse</i>)<br />2. <i>The funeral party drove to church.</i><br /><br />I remember hearing that when Martin Luther King, at Mahalia Jackson's urging, tagged his <i>I have a dream</i> riff onto his Lincoln Memorial speech, she said words to the effect <br /><br /><i>These people don't know it, but they are going to <b>church</b>!</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-19016264421656997412014-04-06T02:10:56.158+01:002014-04-06T02:10:56.158+01:00Massachusetts-
I wonder if these superfluous &quo...Massachusetts-<br /><br />I wonder if these superfluous "the"s are being, or started out being used as intensifiers. <br /><br />Various illnesses such as (the) flu and (the)cancer which merit a stay in (the) hospital are dramatic and adding/keeping "the" in referring to them emphasizes that.<br /><br />RE (the) menopause:<br /><br />I think hot flashes and hot flushes are referring to different characteristics of the event.<br /><br />Hot flush refers to sensitive tissue being flushed with blood.(as in blushing)<br /><br />Hot flash refers to the sudden onset of the condition.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02138260302522477243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-43599996898564923782013-09-17T02:26:52.754+01:002013-09-17T02:26:52.754+01:00Tom V
It's the rule rather than the exception...Tom V<br /><br />It's the rule rather than the exception to use <b>The X</b> as a short form for <b>The X Sea</b> — provided that X is a unique name like <b>Caribbean</b>, not an everyday adjective like <b>North</b>.<br /><br />The Israelis have generalised this to a shortening of <b>The Sea of X</b>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-82515020926748081072013-09-16T22:59:29.977+01:002013-09-16T22:59:29.977+01:00@The Lebanon, etc.
Israelis (or at least spokespeo...@The Lebanon, etc.<br />Israelis (or at least spokespeople for the nation) also refer to "the Galilee". That's not something I remember hearing/reading until the past couple of decades.<br />As for Ukraine, if my memory is correct (big if), the article was dropped when the country became independent. I suppose the Ukrainians were tired of being referred to as "the border".Tom Vnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-46884914587928245482013-09-09T02:01:51.641+01:002013-09-09T02:01:51.641+01:00And now I'm going to bed. Which is not the sam...<i>And now I'm going to bed. Which is not the same thing as going to the bed, </i><br /><br />In Scotland they say <i>going to my bed</i>.<br /><br />It's possibly a myth that they say <i>You'll have had your tea</i>, but they definitely do say <i>have my tea, have your tea</i> etc.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-46967274863924429462012-09-13T12:57:27.278+01:002012-09-13T12:57:27.278+01:00Coming late to this discussion but to answer Paul ...Coming late to this discussion but to answer Paul Danon, I don't know if people in general ever said "The Lebanon," but the Human League sang it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEsRYkRpySYDavid Laurihttp://www.davidlauri.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-87927749252299571442012-05-13T10:01:52.055+01:002012-05-13T10:01:52.055+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9441620421258585622010-05-06T14:39:25.791+01:002010-05-06T14:39:25.791+01:00I think a better analogy for BrE "in hospital...I think a better analogy for BrE "in hospital" would be "in prison" (or "in jail"). I think both dialects use that the same way we (UK) use "hospital" - an inmate is "in prison", but the building is "the prison" and a visitor might be in/at "the prison" for an hour - so any AmE speakers who can't intuit how BrE "hospital" works could extrapolate from that.<br /><br />(Sorry for the late comment - just discovered your excellent blog this week and have been catching up with the archives.)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14071462167359483371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-26757484644869474172008-05-14T03:48:00.000+01:002008-05-14T03:48:00.000+01:00Back in the olden days, every ailment had its dete...Back in the olden days, every ailment had its determiner.<BR/><BR/><I>"I can cure the Itch, the Stitch, the Pox and the Gout..."</I><BR/><BR/>We the English would no more dream of a visit to <I>the</I> hospital to have the aforementioned devils knocked out, than we would go to library to borrow a book on the topic.<BR/><BR/>Ms. Guist, please don't tell me my comment is "off the topic"!<BR/><BR/>"Englishman in New York" AndyAndyGraveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14188827383750366474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-87221767472500459442007-10-16T13:33:00.000+01:002007-10-16T13:33:00.000+01:00It sounds wrong to you because it's not what you s...It sounds wrong to you because it's not what you say, presumably. It sounds right to others because it is what they say. If you start looking for logic in linguistic expressions, you'll run into trouble quickly. <BR/>Did you go to the school?lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1930810098967717272007-10-16T02:14:00.000+01:002007-10-16T02:14:00.000+01:00'Pick up the phone' implies that there are multipl...'Pick up the phone' implies that there are multiple phones in existance but the speaker is referring to a specific one. <BR/><BR/>Therefore going to the hospital makes perfect sense (there are many but the speaker is referring to a particular one). <BR/><BR/>Also, going to hospital makes perfect sense but is more generic.<BR/><BR/>Saying 'the menopause' is ridiculous. How many menopauses can one woman have?? Theoretically there could be many but under normal physiological circumstances there is only one.<BR/><BR/>Saying 'the menopause' implies that there are multiple menopauses to choose from and the speaker is referring to one specifically. <BR/><BR/>No wonder it sounds wrong!<BR/><BR/>Does anyone agree???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-44329809290713747152007-04-22T23:30:00.000+01:002007-04-22T23:30:00.000+01:00No idea, Ken!No idea, Ken!lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-70342840191522336272007-04-22T18:06:00.000+01:002007-04-22T18:06:00.000+01:00Why do you suppose we say (AE) "on the radio" but ...Why do you suppose we say (AE) "on the radio" but "on TV"?Ken Broadhursthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04430899802705818716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-25272964266198242732007-04-20T21:17:00.000+01:002007-04-20T21:17:00.000+01:00And it's go to the mosque in AmE and BrE.And it's go to the mosque in AmE and BrE.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13710168619832685323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-59413843288049204352007-04-19T17:40:00.000+01:002007-04-19T17:40:00.000+01:00the only ban is on topics, not on people! :)the only ban is on topics, not on people! :)lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-55666183061221488562007-04-19T17:30:00.000+01:002007-04-19T17:30:00.000+01:00Very sorry. I understood your: "Dearieme, the dial...Very sorry. I understood your: "Dearieme, the dialects definitely don't agree on thes in country names (but I'm guessing you knew that), but let's please NOT DISCUSS THAT HERE any further!" to mean that we weren't to discuss disagreements between AmE and BrE on definite determiners. My post was about pretty well everything else but not that. Just as well I didn't add the joke about Concord(e). Ah well: another forum, another ban,Paul Danonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04816761952837296368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-72207342400994245232007-04-18T22:37:00.000+01:002007-04-18T22:37:00.000+01:00I have always believed the extra thes in US Englis...I have always believed the extra thes in US English and elsewhere to be Celtic in origin, as Lynne said here. Up here in Scotland we sometimes use the definite article in front of people's names, as in "she's some linguist the Lynne." I suppose that is a determiner rather than an article. Anyway, added articles (relative to English) are very common indeed in Scottish Gaelic. For instance, the Gaelic for "in Glasgow" is "ann an Glaschu", literally "in the Glasgow." And that also gets done far more consistently and constantly than in English, in Bavaria, which is the Celtic region in Germany. The German language overall uses far more articles than English, but those personal determiners are unknown outwith the south (Bavaria, Austria). Does anyone know whether the same holds true in Spain's Celtic Galicia?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-72097019559791385622007-04-18T13:50:00.000+01:002007-04-18T13:50:00.000+01:00Paul, you are very naughty. (See my comment after...Paul, you are very naughty. (See my comment after dearieme's.)lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-63969018598145204122007-04-18T13:17:00.000+01:002007-04-18T13:17:00.000+01:00Sorry about the post above, folks. The link-text (...Sorry about the post above, folks. The link-text (which disappeared) was <I>le Royaume-Uni: nul points</I>.Paul Danonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04816761952837296368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-52605556064145676732007-04-18T13:10:00.000+01:002007-04-18T13:10:00.000+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Paul Danonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04816761952837296368noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-80098620090281893662007-04-18T13:09:00.000+01:002007-04-18T13:09:00.000+01:00Dearime asks if we can agree on use of the definit...<A HREF="http://www2.blogger.com/profile/06654632450454559188" REL="nofollow">Dearime</A> asks if we can agree on use of the definite determiner with at least some country-names. Always one to promote peace and concord, I'd point out, as well as <I>the Argentine</I> there's also <I>Argentina</I>. <I>The Argentine</I> used to mean the country but, during <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War" REL="nofollow">the Falklands/Malvinas war</A> 25 years ago (before most of you SBACLers were born), excited pressmen started calling people from that country <I>Argentines</I>. Another linguistic casualty of that war was <I>Argentinian</I> which got re-spelled as <I>Argentinean</I>. (I compose this stuff in Word and <A HREF="http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/billg/default.mspx" REL="nofollow">Bill</A> doesn't like <I>Argentinian</I>.) Then there was the affectionate tabloid nickname for our south American foes: the <I>Argies</I>, which conveniently connoted <A HREF="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/argy-bargy" REL="nofollow"><I>argy bargy</I></A>.<BR/><BR/>Is all this getting to me or did we once say <I>the Lebanon</I> and have we since dropped the article/determiner? Also, mightn't the determiner be gradually dropping off <I>the Ukraine</I> and, for that matter, <I>the Gambia</I>. <I>The Vatican</I> is funny because, although it's a sovereign state, I bet it connotes for many people a building and/or an institution. Most of it's indoors anyway.<BR/><BR/>Countries in French have genders and, frequently, definite determiners (as do so many nouns from which we'd leave them off). Most nations are (in my recollection) helpfully feminine but you need to remember the persecuted masculine minority, including [the] Lebanon and the UK (as in <A HREF="http://www.eurovision.tv" REL="nofollow"/>). Canada's masculine too, so <I>in Canada</I> isn't *<I>en Canada</I> but <I>au Canada</I> which I believe is conveniently also more or less the English-language title of the national anthem. In French, at least two cities I've heard of always have a (masculine) determiner: Cairo and Le Havre. You write <I>à Paris</I> but <I>au Caire</I>, and always <I>le Caire</I>, never just <I>Caire</I>. Galicia's <I>A Coruña</I> seems to come with a mandatory determiner, and in English (but not in England) there's <I>the Hague</I>.Paul Danonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04816761952837296368noreply@blogger.com