tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post2790664883583340512..comments2024-03-28T16:11:36.465+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: squint, cross-eyedlynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger115125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-89848885123392938142018-05-13T20:07:48.781+01:002018-05-13T20:07:48.781+01:00Adrian, Oz is a big place. I grew up learning Engl...Adrian, Oz is a big place. I grew up learning English in Melbourne Vic. in the sixties. "Navel" was a common word and "umbilicus" was rare. If someone had said "weirded out" at the time then it would not have made sense. <br />The first time I heard "belly button" was on an American TV program and I thought it was one of the lower buttons on a shirt. I guess you still have lots of Amerecan TV an movies, so that may have influenced common usage. <br />Larry Anttilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02865762634013142530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-39683128770374976502018-05-12T20:00:38.190+01:002018-05-12T20:00:38.190+01:00I am reminded of a situation in which the word &qu...I am reminded of a situation in which the word "diplopia" would have prevented a misunderstanding because I would have asked what it means. The doctor said "it has been concluded that you have double vision." I consider it normal and so obvious that I agreed by saying "Parallax." That seemingly trivial exchange was almost forgotten until I saw "double vision" as a part of his official written diagnosis. <br />Parallax is not a medical term so I should have used "stereopsis" instead, but perhaps that would also have failed to register. Stereopsis is useful for depth perception from a few centimeters up to 30 meters. <br />The point is that a specific doctor and a specific patient may interpret double vision very differently. I do not expect everyone to understand double vision the way I do simply because it is too ambiguous.Larry Anttilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02865762634013142530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-73183740353285553442017-08-19T02:21:47.881+01:002017-08-19T02:21:47.881+01:00The Americans in these comments seem to misunderst...The Americans in these comments seem to misunderstand quite how common squint is for this, and how unusual stra... hang on, let me check... strabismus is. I have a squint myself and have never heard it until now.<br />I understand that patients should be spoken to in the language they prefer, but it is unthinkable that a Brit would know strabismus and NOT squint, and very peculiar for someone to say they don't have a squint, they have strabismus. The doctor can't be expected to be aware of this difference between British and American English.<br />I agree that doctors should be ready to use different words for different patients depending on their needs, I just think this example is a long way outside the norm in a British doctor's surgery, and understandable that the doctor would make a face at being "corrected" on it.<br /><br />I'm going to go away and ask everyone I know whether they know what strabismus is. Perhaps I'm unusual in having missed it for so long (age 32)Grinnyguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08660699369923586004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-78173564555055632232017-06-23T19:37:39.063+01:002017-06-23T19:37:39.063+01:00As I understand it, there are three words for squi...As I understand it, there are three words for squint in British English: squint, strabismus and heterophoria. Squint is the word that most people in Britain understand, and strabismus and heterophoria are used only by professionals.Andy JShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15819413906544791899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-56497040466152229722017-06-19T16:37:46.319+01:002017-06-19T16:37:46.319+01:00Brits need to understand that they're inconsis...Brits need to understand that they're inconsistent about this. :) Plenty of British use of classical words where AmE would use English. E.g. labrynthitis v inner ear infection. Covered that back here: https://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/infections-and-itises.html <br /><br />(Also, do note that the person who introduced the word strabisimus into the conversation was not American.)lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-6284918616142639352017-06-19T15:10:38.953+01:002017-06-19T15:10:38.953+01:00Count me among those who had never heard the unnec...Count me among those who had never heard the unnecessary word 'strabisimus' before reading this post.<br />Americans need to understand that (not just in the doctor's surgery, but anywhere at all) the use of obscure latinate words for commonplace concepts instantly sets off an ear-splitting alarm audible to all British people:<br />[i]"Charlatan! charlatan! charlatan!"[/i]Grhmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-43316501675216568912017-06-11T15:26:20.889+01:002017-06-11T15:26:20.889+01:00I have had a squint since birth and it has always ...I have had a squint since birth and it has always been called that. I'm British. Squint is a standard term to use with patients, because it is understandable, not too colloquial, not too medical and inoffensive. I only learned strabismus is the official name as an adult. Cross eyed is too colloquial for a doctor and quite offensive now.<br /><br />Lazy eye refers to a different condition, amblyopia. But it is used with patients and is not offensive or too colloquial.<br /><br />The verb to squint is also widely understood and more used that screw up, which means get something wrong.<br /><br />Alexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-72330905453322619862017-05-29T00:03:01.042+01:002017-05-29T00:03:01.042+01:00While reading about wellerisms on Wikipedia, I cam...While reading about wellerisms on <a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellerism" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia</a>, I came across this line spoken by the character, Sam Weller (from Charles Dickens' The Pickwick Papers, 1836), that they're named after:<br /><br />"<i>There; now we look compact and comfortable, as the father said ven he cut his little boy's head off, to cure him o' squintin'.</i>"<br />Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-75223951848348175562017-05-27T02:56:03.191+01:002017-05-27T02:56:03.191+01:00AmE here. The system you describe in paragraphs 3 ...AmE here. The system you describe in paragraphs 3 and 4 sounds quite a bit like the system I have. My doctor is a Family Practice doctor (GP was previously used in the US, but I don't think anyone would be called a GP now) in a practice chosen from a local list provided through my health insurance. I have a long-term relationship with her, but it began because she has a contract with my insurance company, is local, and had room for me as a patient. She is the gatekeeper for other medical services I might need. Unless I misunderstood your post, it sounds like the biggest difference between our services is who has the contract with the doctor to provide medical care?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-61983527668100520362017-05-23T20:05:52.263+01:002017-05-23T20:05:52.263+01:00To me, too, the word 'strabismus' brings t...To me, too, the word 'strabismus' brings to mind the Beachcomber character (I remember Spike Milligan in a TV series based on Beachcomber's writings many years ago). I did know it meant a squint, but would never use it in ordinary conversation.Kate Buntinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17223976536411967222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-14034679944672848112017-05-21T13:09:44.852+01:002017-05-21T13:09:44.852+01:00Only if they're aware of both terms.
What Whe...Only if they're aware of both terms.<br /><br />What Wheatie and I are saying is that the word <i>strabismus</i> is so extraordinarily abstruse to British speakers — even including British doctors — that you just can't extrapolate.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1354529620499577242017-05-21T12:19:37.179+01:002017-05-21T12:19:37.179+01:00My smiley comment was intended to communicate: Lat...My smiley comment was intended to communicate: Latin terms feel 'more medical' than English ones to some people. lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-32010431106636707452017-05-21T00:12:06.479+01:002017-05-21T00:12:06.479+01:00Yes, she accommodated by checking that he was usin...Yes, she accommodated by checking that he was using <i>strabismus</i> in the same way that she might use it.<br /><br />The fact that patients sometimes use abstruse medical terminology doesn't always mean that they understand it.<br /><br /><br />Other things being equal, doctor and patient would have ended up with mutually satisfactory vocabulary. Unfortunately, Dariusz derailed the negotiation that might have been by claiming that <i>a squint</i> was different from <i>a strabismus</i>.<br />David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-17428873967193209082017-05-20T23:35:37.684+01:002017-05-20T23:35:37.684+01:00I don't understand your comment "There...I don't understand your comment "There's medical, and then there's medical. :)". The term "squint" is the medical term in common use in the UK. See, for instance, NICE guidance -https://cks.nice.org.uk/squint-in-children#!scenario. This is a document intended for professionals. <br />There is no "shift". It is much more likely the professional involved did not perceive the point being made. For them the two terms are synonymous and they are unlikely to understand that someone is going to interpret their comment that "they are one and the same" as giving the feeling 'that word you used, that's not a word I'm allowing you". <br />Wheatiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16856335627938700821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-49247744722481351512017-05-20T23:28:50.022+01:002017-05-20T23:28:50.022+01:00"the habit of mouthing rather than speaking p..."the habit of mouthing rather than speaking potentially embarrassing words"<br /><br />This habit, mostly displayed, I think, by ladies of a certain age, was regularly parodied by Les Dawson and Roy Barraclough in drag as the characters Cissie and Ada:<br /><br />"Dawson explained that this mouthing of words (or "mee-mawing") was a habit of Lancashire millworkers trying to communicate over the tremendous racket of the looms, and then resorted to in daily life for indelicate subjects." (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cissie_and_Ada" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia</a>)<br /><br />One unforgettable such sketch goes like (something like) this:<br /><br />"Did you hear Madge died?"<br />"No-o-o! What of?"<br />"It was the big C that took her" [meaning cancer, of course]<br />(Beat)<br />"What, she drowned?"<br /><br />In an echo of this blog's subject matter, this pun was recently reworked by David Mitchell in the R4 comedy panel game The Unbelievable Truth as (something like): "Her Majesty stated that we [Brits and Americans] are divided by an enormous sea. A spokesman later clarified that she was referring to the Atlantic Ocean, not Donald Trump"Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-54205474162449507212017-05-20T23:10:38.439+01:002017-05-20T23:10:38.439+01:00I wasn't familiar with the Dr Strabismus quote...I wasn't familiar with the Dr Strabismus quote, which I find is from J.B.Morton, aka Beachcomber of the Daily Express, and is in full: "Dr. Strabismus (Whom God Preserve) of Utrecht is carrying out research work with a view to crossing salmon with mosquitoes. He says it will mean a bite every time for fishermen."<br /><br />Coincidentally, he also once wrote: "One disadvantage of being a hog is that at any moment some blundering fool may try to make a silk purse out of your wife's ear."Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-80737682239208289432017-05-20T23:00:52.408+01:002017-05-20T23:00:52.408+01:00SE is socio-economic, and I think the 2nd S is pro...SE is socio-economic, and I think the 2nd S is probably stratum.Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-49047651149040509092017-05-20T22:51:03.516+01:002017-05-20T22:51:03.516+01:00In the original quote, the objection was that the ...In the original quote, the objection was that the doctor or optometrist was not using medical language. The point I am making is that "squint" is medical language in the UK and not talking down to the patient. It is one and the same thing to doctors in the UK. I think it is likely that the professional did not perceive that using this term would be objectionable to someone not from the UK. In other words they simply would not take in the point that was being made. I think it is unreasonable to expect them to guess this. Perhaps if the patient had explained they would have been quite happy to use "strabismus". Maybe you could further clarify doctors in in the USA would always use "strabismus"and would always be understood. Wheatiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16856335627938700821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-80269977211145500222017-05-20T22:37:15.523+01:002017-05-20T22:37:15.523+01:00There's medical, and then there's medical....There's medical, and then there's medical. :)<br /><br />But I still think there is a fault in the communication here. The patient (who is not British) started out with one term, and the doctor shifted it. It gives the feeling 'that word you used, that's not a word I'm allowing you'. lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-18190581540844605782017-05-20T22:30:28.054+01:002017-05-20T22:30:28.054+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Wheatiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16856335627938700821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-21267411269663553422017-05-20T22:21:01.232+01:002017-05-20T22:21:01.232+01:00But it was the patient who used strabismus. Surely...But it was the patient who used strabismus. Surely it is good communication to accommodate to the patient's vocabulary.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-32974113977294912912017-05-20T18:07:19.246+01:002017-05-20T18:07:19.246+01:00In the UK "squint" is a medical term and... In the UK "squint" is a medical term and the one most doctors in the UK would use when talking to another professional. Using the word "strabismus" when talking to a patient would widely be regarded as poor communication and use of jargon. When I used to teach and assess medical students, I would have been surprised if they used "strabismus" and discouraged Its use.Wheatiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16856335627938700821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-12620698514449088502017-05-19T12:08:44.930+01:002017-05-19T12:08:44.930+01:00I think you have a very good point, Autolycus, one...I think you have a very good point, Autolycus, one which I hadn't thought of.<br /><br />It's often said — half seriously — that the NHS (National health Service) is Britain's closest approximation to a national religion. Whatever the current flaws and difficulties, we cling to an idealised picture of how it's supposed to be. What you've brought out is that this image of the NHS affects the way we communicate with doctors.<br /><br />US readers may not be aware that — aside from accidents and the emergencies — we access the service though a <b>gatekeeper</b>: a GP (general practitioner) on whose list we are registered. Actually, the gatekeeper nowadays is more likely to be a group of doctors working together and sharing the list (a so-called <b>practice</b>), but the principle remains that we have a long-term relationship with one, or not many more, service provider. And that doctor or practice is not usually our <b>choice</b>, but what the system makes easy. This means a practice which is <b>local</b> and <b>has room on the list</b> for you. <br /><br />[These lists are crucial to the working of the system. GPs are not employed by the NHS but are paid on the basis of the list of potential NHS-users they have contacted to serve.]<br /><br />So, we're <b>service users</b>, not <b>consumers. </b>Yes, some people are able to choose one practice over others. And yes, we have a right to a second opinion. But these are the exceptions.<br /><br />One linguistic consequence is that the core of our conversation with doctors is with someone that we've known for some time. Insofar as we understand each other, it's the result of learning to understand each other's vocabulary. There's no call <b>in principle</b> for precise technical terminology — although it's an option if doctor and patient prefer.<br /><br />The way we converse with GPs tends to affect the way we communicate with the specialist doctors, surgeons, clinicians that we may be referred to. We bring to the conversations the terms we have previously used with our familiar GP. This stranger will often try to use the language that we're familiar with. Problems arise when the specialist starts explaining conditions that have not been named to us before. There are many anecdotes of patients failing to take in what they're told. It's a double whammy — strange new terms uttered by a stranger. And a triple whammy if the patient fells pressured and anxious. When all this comes together, some patients fail to take in the doctor's explanations of the terms he/she uses. These communication failures may be a minority, but they constitute a <b>potential problem</b> that doctors are trained to avoid.<br /><br />PS<br />I wrote, but somehow failed to post a reply to Doug Sundseth about the use of generic names for drugs. My GPs (and, I believe, most NHS GPs) try to speak of generic drugs, because the prescribe generic drugs because (in Scotland at least) they are paid for in full by the NHS and not at all by the patient. So I, like no doubt many other patients, try to use generic names if I know them.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-68782723771347246792017-05-17T08:59:30.245+01:002017-05-17T08:59:30.245+01:00On medical/colloquial language: as a wild generali...On medical/colloquial language: as a wild generalisation, I'm struck by how often American contributors to sundry internet messageboards I visit delve into the technical details of various medical issues, the specific results of specific tests and so on. In part this may be something to do with (and let's not get too far into this) how medical care is organised in our two countries, with people in the US seemingly feeling they have to or ought to do a lot of running around between different sorts of doctor and service, where we're brought up to rely on the GP as the default option. But in part it seems to be a collision/collusion between the remains of an old "de haut en bas" attitude to doctor/patient relationships, and a great push to counter-act against that precisely by consciously looking for what would be considered patients' ways of talking about medical problems, in a culture that's prone to euphemisms and indirect allusion anyway - they have special courses on it. It's a source of many a joke, of course - trying to discuss constipation with a lady who's obviously using all the euphemisms:<br />"And do you take anything when this.. you know...." <br />"Well, I take my knitting"<br /><br />Or there's the habit of mouthing rather than speaking potentially embarrassing words, which adds another layer of complication.Autolycushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17642868944400656922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-28098558327596641062017-05-16T16:04:28.272+01:002017-05-16T16:04:28.272+01:00Dated or not, I think Have a squint at this woul...Dated or not, I think <i> Have a squint at this </i> would be understood anywhere that <i>squint</i> can mean 'glance'.<br /><br />Without a TARGET expression such s <i>at this</i>, there's an ambiguity to<br /><br /><i>have a squint</i><br /><br />compounded by the multiple ambiguity of <i>have</i>.<br /><br /><i>Squint</i>, as we've seen implies that the eyes do one of the following<br /><br />• make an involuntary gesture<br />• make a controlled gesture<br />• are uncontrollably and steadily directed<br />• are controllably and steadily directed<br /><br />Among the many meaning of have, the relevant ones here are<br /><br />• 'indulge in' — as <i>have a bath, have a fag</i><br />• 'be characterised by' — as 'have a limp, have a roving eye'<br /><br />So <br /><br />• 'indulge in a voluntary gesture of the eyes at this' <br />— <i>have a squint at this</i><br /><br />•'was characterised from childhood by an uncontrolled and steadily directed gaze'<br />— <i> had a squint from childhood</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.com