tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post3181531834124276449..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: Word of the Year round-uplynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger124125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-17223595335416268882015-01-27T21:36:12.698+00:002015-01-27T21:36:12.698+00:00isn't that a hard "th"?
I assumed y...<i>isn't that a hard "th"?<br /><br />I assumed you were querying the terminology</i><br /><br />You're right, I was. It still seems back-to-front to me. A voiced sound sounds harder (to mix up the terms).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-71325973563352312842015-01-27T12:07:15.255+00:002015-01-27T12:07:15.255+00:00j0egreen
isn't that a hard "th"?
I...j0egreen<br /><br /><i>isn't that a hard "th"?</i><br /><br />I assumed you were querying the terminology, but it's just occurred to me that it may have been the actual pronunciation.<br /><br />The BBC dictionary lists <b>only</b> the pronunciation with a STRUT vowel followed by a voiced or soft consonant, sometimes known as <b>eth</b> (sounding like the middle of <i>weather</i>) for Viscount Southwell and for Southwell in Dorset. Let's call it a <i>southern</i>-like pronunciation.<br /><br />For the Nottinghamshire town and its Bishop, and for the surname of less exhaulted Mr's and Mrs's Southwell they list additionally but <b>secondly</b> the spelling pronunciation with a MOUTH vowel followed by a voiceless or hard consonant sometimes known as <b>thorn</b> or <b>theta</b> after the Old Germanic and timeless Greek letters. Let's call it a <i>south</i>-like pronunciation.<br /><br />Thus the BBC admits that the spelling pronunciation exists for the surname and the Notts town. <br /><br />• Their policy on listing surname pronunciations is to place first <br /><i>that for which we have the most evidence, and subsequent ones are in an approximate order of decreasing frequency</i>. <br />So <b>in their judgement</b> a <i>southern</i>-like pronunciation is more common that a <i>south</i>-like pronunciation.<br /><br />• Their policy on listing town pronunciations is similar but subtly different. As I posted before, they prioritise the pronunciation shared by the most confident, probably upper-middle class social networks among the townspeople of Southwark Notts — whether or not it is more frequent among Southwellians at large.<br /><br />John Wells don't make the distinctions between aristocracy, other families and different towns called Southwell. He has only one entry with (i) the <i>southern</i> type followed by (ii) the type. In other words the former is the more frequent. Less nuanced, but probably more reliable. The BBC evidence seems to have a significant element of <b>impression</b>. John's evidence is <b>objectively measured</b> frequency.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-80038250585494764082015-01-26T18:25:24.877+00:002015-01-26T18:25:24.877+00:00About local variant pronunciations ...
Long befor...About local variant pronunciations ...<br /><br />Long before Facebook and the like, linguists were looking at <b>social networks</b> of people who spoke (and/or wrote) to each other in the non-virtual world. It wasn't that one speaker conversed with all the other speakers, but he or she did covers with speakers who also conversed with other speakers who ... and so on. The sum total of these speakers is a social network.<br /><br />This idea gave another way of identifying speakers with similar pronunciation. A group of like-pronouncing speakers can be identified<br />• by geography<br />• by class (or aspiration)<br />• by generation<br />• by social network<br /><br />The BBC dictionary indirectly reflects this complexity. <br /><br />• The first listed pronunciation, the one specifically recommended to BBC announcers, is defined by geography and class: <i><b>that preferred by the local educated population</b></i>.<br /><br />This sounds rather snobbish today. I think what it boils down to is <b>confidence</b>. People who feel confident that they have profited from their education are also confident in their pronunciation. They feel totally comfortable with their choice of pronunciation within their own social networks. But they also feel confident when speaking to people from other social networks.<br /><br />• The least preferred (and not necessarily listed) variants are also defined by geography and class/social network: <i><b>local dialectal pronunciations</b></i>. <br /><br />In Britain these are generallyof low prestige, very largely confined to working-class speakers. So speakers may feel confident, even proud, when using these pronunciations within their own social network. But outside those networks they are likely to be unconfident and to use a more prestigious pronunciation.<br /><br />• The in-between choices are treated differently. Here, and only here, numbers matter. If more speakers use one pronunciation, its listed above one (or more) observed to be used by fewer speakers.<br /><br />It seems that John Wells uses just the frequency principle for his order of listing (after allowing for UK or US geography). But the BBC favours what the most confident middle-class speakers use, even if more people in the same town use something else.<br /><br />So it's possible (perhaps even true) that SUDHuhl and SHROHzbuhry belong to different <b>social networks</b> from SOUTHwell and SHROOzbuhry, even though the two exist side by side in the town they name.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-5553591382216763992015-01-26T17:40:02.706+00:002015-01-26T17:40:02.706+00:00j0egreen
isn't that a hard "th"?
T...j0egreen<br /><br /><i>isn't that a hard "th"?</i><br /><br />The technical phonetic term is <b>voiced</b>. The less-than technical <b>soft</b> and <b>hard</b> seems to be fairly common when applied to sounds corresponding to letter C and letters TH.<br />HARD = /k/ (as in <i>can</i>), /θ/ (as in <i>thin</i>) i.e. <b>voiceless</b><br />SOFT = /s/ (as in <i>cent</i>), /ð/ (as in <i>this</i>) i.e. <b>voiced</b><br /><br />This is bad news for anybody who has studied Russian. The terms <b>hard</b> and <b>soft</b> mean something totally different when applied to Russian consonants.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-91971779007995540452015-01-26T15:29:03.485+00:002015-01-26T15:29:03.485+00:00Here you go, J0egreen. Have at it!<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Southwell,_Nottinghamshire&action=edit&section=5" rel="nofollow">Here you go,</a> J0egreen. Have at it!Dick Hartzellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07065924271517452841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-10792418632029157252015-01-26T15:24:34.955+00:002015-01-26T15:24:34.955+00:00That's a little confusing. isn't that a ha...<i>That's a little confusing. isn't that a hard "th"? And people wonder why Wikipedia's reliability is often doubted.</i><br /><br />Hey, click the [edit] link over the section in question and fix it!<br /><br />I do it all the time -- though mostly I just repair clumsy English. It's rare that I find an outright error of fact.<br /><br />Is Wikipedia a bit rough around the edges? Sure. But it's a measure of our 21st century glibness that we tend to take its monumental achievement for granted.Dick Hartzellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07065924271517452841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-20051711047694263522015-01-26T01:46:32.571+00:002015-01-26T01:46:32.571+00:00My favorite oddball pronunciations in the US are T...My favorite oddball pronunciations in the US are Taliaferro County, Georgia, pronounced Tolliver, and Botetourt County, Virginia, pronounced Bott-uh-tott.Diane Benjaminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02551747832953267346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-37918988012433339602015-01-26T00:55:50.318+00:002015-01-26T00:55:50.318+00:00The Wikipedia article confirms it
"In most ...<i>The Wikipedia article confirms it </i><br /><br />"In most parts of Nottinghamshire, 'Southwell' is pronounced SUH-thull, with a soft 'th' (as in 'the' or 'there')"<br /><br />That's a little confusing. isn't that a <i>hard</i> "th"? And people wonder why Wikipedia's reliability is often doubted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-26490039891772997412015-01-25T17:44:47.357+00:002015-01-25T17:44:47.357+00:00Dru - The first person I heard pronounce Southwell...Dru - The first person I heard pronounce Southwell as spelt was a 60+ colleague who grew up there. The Wikipedia article confirms it (section "Southwell today")Kate Buntinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17223976536411967222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-25222046357218349712015-01-25T00:30:31.984+00:002015-01-25T00:30:31.984+00:00I suggest reading the original posts (click on the...I suggest reading the original posts (click on the links on the words in this post). The fact that these were not American English until recently is very easily documented. lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-61343554167924621442015-01-24T23:02:45.698+00:002015-01-24T23:02:45.698+00:00Looking at your list there are a few that I wonder...Looking at your list there are a few that I wonder about … <i>dodgy</i> and <i>bum</i> seem to hav been in AmE as long as they hav been in BrE so I don't see how you say they're imports to the US. I would say the same for "to go missing". That has been around for a long time. Indeed, I don't even find "go missing", "went missing", or "gone missing" in the plot of BrE ngrams but it is in AmE. If anything that is US to UK.<br /><br />Ginger as a spice I see but I still don't see ginger to mean a redhead much in the US. Indeed, outside of British written books like "Harry Potter", I don't recall seeing it at all. That's not to say it hasn't happen'd … the US is a big place. But it's not widespred.AnWulfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14561827352709157334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-17337473132160336182015-01-24T12:23:09.604+00:002015-01-24T12:23:09.604+00:00I've long understood that it is more that ShrO...I've long understood that it is more that ShrOAsbury is the U pronunciation, with the school being pronounced that way, and ShrOOsbury being what the locals call it.<br /><br />I also come from Derbyshire but have relatives who in the past lived in Southwell, and I've never heard it pronounced any way other than Suth'll. If it's starting to be pronounced as it's spelt, that sounds like a modern development. Uttoxeter (ex Utchǝter now Youtoxeter) and Cirencester (ex Sissiter now Sirensester) did the same but about 100 years ago. <br /><br />Likewise, I've never heard Belvoir pronounced any way other than Beaver like the animal that builds dams.<br /><br />Newcastle and Carlisle are opposite and interesting. I've noticed that nationally, in Newcastle the stress usually goes on the first syllable and in Carlisle the stress goes on the second. But locally in Newcastle the stress goes on the second syllable and in Carlisle on the first.<br /><br />It's slightly reassuring to read all these North Americans citing weird pronunciations of places in North America, since it means you can't complain any longer about Worcester, Leicester, Happisburgh etc. That last one, by the way, is pronounced Haysborough.Drunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-14242095310122791192015-01-23T17:11:10.893+00:002015-01-23T17:11:10.893+00:00Actually, I hear the GOOSE-vowel pronunciation mor...Actually, I hear the GOOSE-vowel pronunciation more than the GOAT vowel, especially from people like my in-laws, who live quite near there. It seems to be Southerners who use the GOAT-vowel.... Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-77648948447161854752015-01-23T14:03:14.903+00:002015-01-23T14:03:14.903+00:00@Kate: the BBC dictionary accepts both. Hurrah for...@Kate: the BBC dictionary accepts both. Hurrah for them, then. I would have said "Suth'll" too by analogy with Southwark's "Suth'k", but we all know how treacherous analogy can be.<br /><br />FWIW Australian pronunciation drops some English oddities. For example "Belvoir" is pronounced French-phonetically, rather than "Beaver".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-42166535505665154972015-01-23T13:57:50.154+00:002015-01-23T13:57:50.154+00:00Personally I'm with Mrs Reboots; I've seld...<i>Personally I'm with Mrs Reboots; I've seldom heard the GOOSE-vowel pronunciation.</i><br /><br />Unless I have completely misread things, I think that means you're with me and not with Mrs Reboots (Reboots? Surely Redboots. An entertaining typo, whether deliberate or not).<br /><br />Still my point was merely that both pronunciations have their steadfast adherents, whatever the proportions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-80847691948065134922015-01-23T11:49:02.963+00:002015-01-23T11:49:02.963+00:00j0egreen
I think we need some evidence.
Well, b...j0egreen<br /><br /><i>I think we need some evidence. </i><br /><br />Well, both the BBC dictionary and John Wells list the GOAT-vowel pronunciation first. The BBC people clearly <b>believe</b> that evidence is on their side, albeit without a claim to methodical research. But John really did set out to find statistical evidence. <br /><br />Personally I'm with Mrs Reboots; I've seldom heard the GOOSE-vowel pronunciation. And it's too much of a spelling pronunciation for my fancy.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-5641158639291075862015-01-23T10:21:23.929+00:002015-01-23T10:21:23.929+00:00Southwell near Nottingham is another example. I (f...Southwell near Nottingham is another example. I (from neighbouring Derbyshire) was always taught to call it "Suth'll", but many natives use the spelling pronunciation.Kate Buntinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17223976536411967222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-42859520994483443252015-01-23T08:20:03.885+00:002015-01-23T08:20:03.885+00:00I believe most people use the BOOT vowel when refe...<i>I believe most people use the BOOT vowel when referring to the town.</i><br /><br />Whereas I believe exactly the opposite (going by recollection). I think we need some evidence. (The specific division that I was thinking of originally was that people from one half of the town pronounce it one way, and the others the other. Maybe that's apocryphal.)<br /><br />On a related note, I find myself a little sceptical of David's claim that the local pronunciations of Newcastle are in increasing use elsewhere. I do know though that it doesn't take very long living away from a country to get completely out of touch with word trends. I have never heard anyone in Oz say "bellend" or "overshare", not even fellow ex-pats.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-78615742478891011802015-01-22T23:49:16.804+00:002015-01-22T23:49:16.804+00:00j0egreen, Mrs Reboots
The BBC dictionary gives th...j0egreen, Mrs Reboots<br /><br />The BBC dictionary gives the GOAT-vowel pronunciation of <i>Shrewsbury</i> first, followed by the GOOSE-vowel pronunciation.<br /><br />Normally, this would amount to a recommendation for broadcasters to use the former. However, they add that <i>'both are used in the town'</i>. <br /><br />Before this they note that the Earl of Shrewsbury and the public school are both pronounced with the GOAT-vowel.<br /><br />So they seem to be saying GOAT is good but they won't really object to GOOSE.<br /><br />j0e, the dictionary is out of print but not, alas, transferred to online-land. In its place, OUP have published a pronunciation dictionary which covers many non-UK names — at the expense of that huge wealth of small-town pronunciations. <br /><br />I've used Amazon's LOOK INSIDE! facility and find it odd — with <b>very</b> strange transcription. The imitation-spelling entries for <i>Maryland</i> <i>Baltimore</i> and <i>Gettysburg</i> are disappointingly devoid of variants: <b>mair-i-luhnd, bawl-ti-mor, get-iz-burg</b>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-22928191702897082442015-01-22T18:02:03.693+00:002015-01-22T18:02:03.693+00:00Similarly with Shrewsbury I believe: the first vow...<br /><i>Similarly with Shrewsbury I believe: the first vowel can be BOAT or BOOT, depending where you live.</i><br /><br />The eponymous school definitely pronounces the first syllable with the BOAT vowel, but I believe most people use the BOOT vowel when referring to the town.Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-18358581379128786412015-01-22T13:08:27.249+00:002015-01-22T13:08:27.249+00:00Oh and having plucked it from the shelf (in a tric...Oh and having plucked it from the shelf (in a trice) I am reminded that it covers personal names as well as place names.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-37551734575423118012015-01-22T13:07:00.555+00:002015-01-22T13:07:00.555+00:00@David Crosbie:
many years ago I would naturally s...@David Crosbie:<br /><i>many years ago I would naturally say BAH-kly (There's no R-sound there in my accent)</i><br /><br />And none in mine either, which is precisely why I sloppily forget to distinguish between attempts to illustrate pronunciation that do or don't include it. That of course then potentially confuses the hell out of rhotic speakers.<br /><br /><i>The BBC pronunciation document which j0egreen referred to in his 16 January posting was for some years published as a dictionary.</i><br /><br />I called it a guide, which was perhaps misleading. I do have the actual dictionary. Priceless. I suppose it's all online now which isn't nearly as pleasurable, however convenient.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-15232371859568281122015-01-22T08:17:54.298+00:002015-01-22T08:17:54.298+00:00In Northampton it is pronounced Nen, but somewhere...<i>In Northampton it is pronounced Nen, but somewhere around Peterborough, the pronunciation changes to Neen</i><br /><br />Similarly with Shrewsbury I believe: the first vowel can be BOAT or BOOT, depending where you live.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-81517888886994649302015-01-22T01:03:06.572+00:002015-01-22T01:03:06.572+00:00Foreign place names can be much more complicated. ...Foreign place names can be much more complicated. <br /><br />• Our name for the capital of the Czech republic comes from a German approximation to Czech <b>Praha</b> but written down with a French spelling <i>Prague</i>. For a long time we used the English spelling pronunciation — as we still do with <i>The Hague</i>. But then we got used to <b>hearing</b> the name rather than <b>reading</b> it. That said, I believe Irish Catholics still use that pronunciation for a particular Bohemian image of the Virgin Mary.<br /><br />• Our name for the capital of Russia is the spelling pronunciation of a version in a language (probably German) where <i>w</i> represents a V-sound.<br /><br />• Our name for the capital of Italy is a spelling pronunciation of the French written form.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-38797373114659187962015-01-22T01:01:24.580+00:002015-01-22T01:01:24.580+00:00I've little sympathy with pronouncements on
ho...I've little sympathy with pronouncements on<br /><i><b>how to pronounce a place name<br />how a place name should be pronounced<br />the correct pronunciation of a place name</b></i><br />There are no rules, only practices and expedients.<br /><br />Places have names usually, but not always, one name per place. That name is written down usually, but not always, with a consistent spelling. People use a name when speaking of that place. <br /><br /><b>If they have never heard the name spoken,</b> they will almost certainly use a spelling pronunciation. <br /><br /><b>If they have read the name but never heard it spoken with reference to that place</b> <br />• If they've heard the name used to refer to a different place (e.g. another Birmingham) or a person with the same name (e.g. Berkley), they will use the familiar pronunciation. <br />• Otherwise they'll use a spelling pronunciation.<br /><br />NB These are initial decisions only. They may change their habit later.<br /><br /><b>If they have heard the name but never read it, or if they don't associate the name they hear with the name they've read</b><br />• They will aim at the same pronunciation, but not to the point of imitating the speaker's accent — except perhaps as a joke<br /><br />NB Again, this is an initial decision. They may change after hearing speakers with a different pronunciation. Or they may modify their pronunciation after they see the name written down.<br /><br />Why do speakers change their pronunciations? Well, a lot depends on who they listen to and who they speak to. For example, many years ago I would naturally say BAH-kly (There's no R-sound there in my accent) for the place in California. But I must have heard the American pronunciation hundreds of times since those days. Moreover the people who speak of the American university know the American pronunciation, while the people who <b>don't</b> know the American pronunciation tend not to ever speak of it. So now I say it your way.<br /><br />Of course, there's also a pressure to sound like 'one of us'. <br />• If you use the 'wrong' pronunciation of <i>Birmingham</i> for the current side of the Atlantic, you won't be misunderstood, but you <b>will</b> advertise yourself as a foreigner. You may think this a good thing or not. It depends on the interpersonal dynamics. Dolly Parton one charmed a British press conference by showing that she knew how we pronounce the town of <i>Rotherham</i>. <br />• A few places have pronunciations favoured by locals but not by the rest of the country. Using that local pronunciation is a <b>badge</b> of narrow loyalty.<br />• Some people even have two pronunciations which they use in different speaking environments.<br /><br />The BBC pronunciation document which j0egreen referred to in his 16 January posting was for some years published as a dictionary. In the introduction they explained the order in which the listed alternative pronunciations. Generally it was<br />FIRST the one preferred by the educated local population<br />LAST local dialectal<br />IN BETWEEN any variant they were 'made aware of'<br />The advice to BBC announcers was to use the FIRST, unless advised otherwise. A typical 'otherwise' is Newcastle (upon Tyne) where FIRST <b>NYO-kah-suhl</b> is not what the locals (educated or otherwise) prefer. Indeed <b>NYOO-kass-uhl</b> or <b>nyoo-KASS-uhl</b> are the local pronunciations, and are increasingly used by non-locals.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.com