tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post4061057809391078356..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: controversylynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-19001705608574929112021-11-14T13:23:38.700+00:002021-11-14T13:23:38.700+00:00It's [lai]-bowitz to a German speaker - it'...It's [lai]-bowitz to a German speaker - it's not about the stress, but about the vowelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-55610754384525822302020-08-07T12:17:57.486+01:002020-08-07T12:17:57.486+01:00BrE. It also sounds a bit strange to my British ea...BrE. It also sounds a bit strange to my British ears when some words are pronounced in AmE (as I hear them) giving all syllables equal stress. The one I hear most is marathon, but also Paul Simon’s rendering of Mrs. Robinson. Also, AmE pronounciation of Iran and Iraq sounds odd in this way also, not just in the initial EYE sound. BTW, does anyone know how natives of these countries pronounce the country names?Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-48728220219193946312019-04-25T10:08:10.048+01:002019-04-25T10:08:10.048+01:00BrE. Re vitamin. We also have BrE CaPILLary, AmE C...BrE. Re vitamin. We also have BrE CaPILLary, AmE CAPillary, and BrE AYmine, AmE AHmine. Since amine derives from ammonia, the AmE form is more logical.Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-88822503063307336952015-03-23T16:47:02.300+00:002015-03-23T16:47:02.300+00:00The Latin Stress Rule also explains one difference...The Latin Stress Rule also explains one difference between <i>aluminum</i> and <i>aluminium</i>.<br /><br />WITHOUT <b>-i-</b><br />Penultimate syllable is <b>light</b> <i>-mi-</i><br /> <i>a-lu-mi-num</i>.<br />Antepenultimate is stressed <b>alúminum</b><br /><br />WITH <b>-i-</b> AS VOWEL<br />Penultimate syllable is <b>light</b> <i>-ni-</i><br /><i>a-lu-mi-ni-um</i><br />Antepenultimate is stressed <b>alumínium</b><br /><br />WITH <b>-i-</b> AS CONSONANT<br />Penultimate syllable is <b>heavy</b> <i>-min-</i><br /><i>a-lu-min-yum</i><br />Penultimate is stressed <b>alumínium</b>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9616031342604380522015-03-23T16:46:59.383+00:002015-03-23T16:46:59.383+00:00The Latin Stress Rule also explains one difference...The Latin Stress Rule also explains one difference between <i>aluminum</i> and <i>aluminium</i>.<br /><br />WITHOUT <b>-i-</b><br />Penultimate syllable is <b>light</b> <i>-mi-</i><br /> <i>a-lu-mi-num</i>.<br />Antepenultimate is stressed <b>alúminum</b><br /><br />WITH <b>-i-</b> AS VOWEL<br />Penultimate syllable is <b>light</b> <i>-ni-</i><br /><i>a-lu-mi-ni-um</i><br />Antepenultimate is stressed <b>alumínium</b><br /><br />WITH <b>-i-</b> AS CONSONANT<br />Penultimate syllable is <b>heavy</b> <i>-min-</i><br /><i>a-lu-min-yum</i><br />Penultimate is stressed <b>alumínium</b>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-80852049389535308842015-03-22T18:48:22.108+00:002015-03-22T18:48:22.108+00:00The Latin Stress Rule was still a psychological re...The Latin Stress Rule was still a psychological reality when scientists invented the words (and things) <i>thermómeter, barómeter</i> etc. We even applied it when the first part of the compound wasn't of Greek (or Latin) origin. Hence <i>Nilómeter, gasómeter, clapómeter</i>.<br /><br />But then we had to absorb the measure-of-length terms from the Continent. <i>Metre</i> already existed as an English word describing poetic rhythm. It existed as the word for a measure of capactity — but only in the fertile mind of Thomas Jefferson. All might have been well if we hadn't adopted the spelling <i>meter</i> for the Continental length-units. There's only one obvious spelling pronunciation for <i>kilometre</i>. But the spelling <i>kilometer</i> is far too close to <i>thermometer</i>.<br /><br />However, the influence of the Latin stress rule didn't extend to the others because we don't have so many words ending in <i>ámeter, -émeter, –ímeter, -úmeter</i>. There's <i>parámeter and perímeter</i>, but I can't think of any with short-E or short-U. So, there wasn't a body of analogous words to make us say <b>centímeter</b> etc.<br /><br />Al of this explains why we say <b>còntrovérsial</b>. It almost explains <b>cóntrovèrsy</b>; we just need to add that the primary and secondary stresses have swapped places. <br /><br />If we disregard the spelling and concentrate on how we say the word (many of us), it even explains <b>contróversy</b>. <br /><br />In my speech, and in many UK (and other) accents, the syllable spelled <i>–ver-</i> is very light indeed. There is no sound — not even the ghost of a sound — corresponding to the letter R. The sound we do pronounce is even weaker than unstressed short-E. It's what linguists call schwa — like a little grunt. So the vowel before light penultimate <i>–ver-</i> carries the stress. <br /><br />By contrast, most American accents have an R-sound at the end of that syllable. So you almost say <b>cóntrovèrsy</b>, but not quite. It seems that for most of you <i>–ver-</i> though not light is not quite heavy enough to take secondary stress. <br /><br />The conservative BrE pronunciation retaining the stress on <i>cón-</i> seems to be restricted to the RP in the narrowest definition of the accent. John Wells (see quote above by Wjarek) states that speakers of RP (not near-RP like me) are divided between pronouncing <i>–ver-</i> as unstressed NURSE vowel and grunting it as a little schwa. The first of these seems to be the equivalent of a typical AmE pronunciation. The latter always sounds artificial to me.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-8734898816824967392015-03-22T18:18:25.464+00:002015-03-22T18:18:25.464+00:00Kevin, Ian
there is something about the quality ...Kevin, Ian<br /><br /><i> there is something about the quality of the "o" vowel in 4-syllable words which strongly attracts the stress away from the "original" or "logical" stress position in such words as controversy and kilometre.</i><br /><br />In these words at least there's a much older process at work. It's not a question of vowel quality, nor of syllable-count. There's a rule applied to words taken from Latin — largely because for many centuries most of the people who coined most of the words were fluent in Latin, including spoken Latin. <br /><br />The key factor is <b>syllable weight</b>. <br />• A light syllable ends in a short vowel.<br />• A heavy syllable ends in a long vowel or a consonant.<br /><br />This Latin stress rule takes account of the penultimate syllable of a word. As summarised by Donka Minkova (<a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Historical-Phonology-Edinburgh-Textbooks-Language/dp/0748634681/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1427047991&sr=1-1&keywords=Donka+Minkova" rel="nofollow">A Historical Phonology of English</a>):<br /><br />HEAVY PENULT <b>Disyllabic</b> <i>fā́ma</i> 'fame' <i>ergo</i> 'therfore'<br />…….........…….<b>Trissylabic</b> <i>comḗta</i>'comet', <i>columna</i> 'column'<br />LIGHT PENULT <b>Disyllabic</b> <i>crócus, ónyx</i> '<br />……………….<b>Trissylabic</b> <i>ábacus, Lúcifer</i><br /><br />The rule was not applied to 'native' words of Germanic origin. We don't say <i><b>Middélsboro</b></i>, for instance. But it was commonly applied to learnèd words from Latin or from Greek via Latin. <br /><br />And it didn't stop at three syllables. In the cases we're looking at, there's a syllable before the final three, which accounts for Ian's examples, <i>ecónomy, astrónomy, autónomy, lobótomy</i> and also to the words <i>ecónomist, lobótomise</i> with long final syllables. The rule still holds with five syllables like <i>homeopathy</i> or six syllables like <i>epistemólogy.<br /></i><br />Although all these words have short-O as the stressed antepenultimate, the rule is far more general. It applies to other short vowels before penultimate light syllables as in <i>análysis</i>(despite <i>ánalyse</i>), <i>electrícity</i> (despite <i>eléctric</i>), <i>herétical</i> (despite <i>héresy</i>). (I can't think of a short-U example.). <br /><br />And, of course it applies to long vowels and heavy syllables before penultimate light syllables<br /><br />The reason these short-O words stand out is<br />• We're more used to long O when the vowel is stressed.<br />• The O-sound is part of the first element of the compound.<br />• It goes against the 'native' law of stressing the root cf <i>próblem-sólving, stár-gázing, sélf-rúle</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-27083551892954130612015-03-21T08:05:12.815+00:002015-03-21T08:05:12.815+00:00Economy, astronomy, autonomy, lobotomy.
Yup, good...Economy, astronomy, autonomy, lobotomy.<br /><br />Yup, good theory, thanks Kevin!Iannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-30089867066124056722010-06-24T17:21:41.856+01:002010-06-24T17:21:41.856+01:00I found this blog while I was trying to figure out...I found this blog while I was trying to figure out how to pronounce 'Leibovitz' and I wasn't planning on commenting until I saw the Okie comment.<br /> I'm born and raised Okie and I like the way we talk.<br />That is all :)Picture Takerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02356912775826562563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-60582313595242169242008-10-22T05:47:00.000+01:002008-10-22T05:47:00.000+01:00Hi LynnHmm, perhaos it's a Jo'burg thing. In Durb...Hi Lynn<BR/>Hmm, perhaos it's a Jo'burg thing. In Durban I've only ever hear contROVersy, and think of the first syllable stress as foreign.<BR/>Controvertial OTOH is controVERtial.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-4770414683650036172008-07-25T19:12:00.000+01:002008-07-25T19:12:00.000+01:00This seemed particularly relevant:http://wordsmith...This seemed particularly relevant:<BR/><BR/>http://wordsmith.org/words/orthoepy.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-81085164913496987552008-07-21T16:21:00.000+01:002008-07-21T16:21:00.000+01:00I haven't noticed the different accent of umbrella...I haven't noticed the different accent of umbrella here, or insurance. I'll keep an ear out for these words now, though. <BR/><BR/>I say pastoral with three syllables, but this proves nothing. Pastral, with two, sounds to me very clipped and British and, if pronounced this way by an American speaker, may even sound affected to me. But this may be just reverse snobbery or something. <BR/><BR/>I've been racking my brain to recall some words on which my mother has corrected my pronunciation - some of them four syllable and regarding the accent, I'm sure. To no avail. One word in particular my parents thought it very funny where I put the accent. Agh.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-41765615113924770862008-07-20T22:26:00.000+01:002008-07-20T22:26:00.000+01:00It's a Southern thing.It's a Southern thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-41686916494781682342008-07-20T21:41:00.000+01:002008-07-20T21:41:00.000+01:00My Texan soon to be ex wife always says INsurance....My Texan soon to be ex wife always says INsurance. I have had the impression that although not universal it's not an uncommon pronunciation in the States, but that may just be because I have become used to hearing it from her.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-22655501240077978422008-07-20T19:18:00.000+01:002008-07-20T19:18:00.000+01:00I'm from the East Coast too, and I have *never* he...I'm from the East Coast too, and I have *never* heard "pastoral" with 2nd-syllable stress. It rhymes with "astral," (AmE) period / (BrE) full stop. No controversy at all! "Bernstein" is BURN-stine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-81212432696058990592008-07-20T02:26:00.000+01:002008-07-20T02:26:00.000+01:00I say pasTORal as well - originally from the East ...I say pasTORal as well - originally from the East Coast, soo..<BR/><BR/>Oh, and Jaxca, I spelled the words I wanted to hear my husband say, and he says inSURance and umBRElla like the rest of us. He thought that saying these words with the accent on the first syllable would be pretty strange and doesn't recall anyone he knows saying them that way. Where are you getting your info? (He's from Eastern OK.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-61878301124266717462008-07-19T04:04:00.000+01:002008-07-19T04:04:00.000+01:00@David Young: pasTORal is AmE. At least, in the M...@David Young: pasTORal is AmE. At least, in the Midwest.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1466671157511972192008-07-18T18:29:00.000+01:002008-07-18T18:29:00.000+01:00Nat, if you hit the link on furore, you'll be take...Nat, if you hit the link on <I>furore</I>, you'll be taken to a past post on the topic.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-12548037133121263272008-07-18T18:25:00.000+01:002008-07-18T18:25:00.000+01:00The mention of "furor(e)" right at the top of this...The mention of "furor(e)" right at the top of this post was an eye-opener (or ear-opener?) for me - I'm Australian and up until now I was only aware of one spelling (furore) and one pronunciation: FYOORor. Now you're telling me that combination is actually very, very bizarre? I can't believe I never noticed that before...<BR/><BR/>And @ anne t.: yes, "balcony" comes via Italian. All the other main Western European languages seem to have "balcon" (subject to spelling variations etc.).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-17445543130586759432008-07-18T17:27:00.000+01:002008-07-18T17:27:00.000+01:00Here in San Antonio and Southern Texas there are t...Here in San Antonio and Southern Texas there are the BalCONes Heights and the BalCONes Escarpment, a geological structure that is like a series of balconies. I wonder if balconies were originally more of a Spanish architectural structure - or Italian, and the different emphasis a century ago might have been carried over from those languages? <BR/><BR/>Jaxca - I'm married to an Okie (or anyway, he's from Oklahoma) and haven't noticed these pronunciations of insurance and umbrella. I'll have to devise some kind of test and pay attention. <BR/><BR/>[This is veering off topic, but pronunciation-wise I've noticed that he doesn't say the eh sound of e very well, so pen can often sound more like pin. And his pronunciation of oil rhymes with bowl, which cracks me up.]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-77214912501779363532008-07-18T13:26:00.000+01:002008-07-18T13:26:00.000+01:00@billWith apologies to Lynne, duodenum was on-topi...@bill<BR/>With apologies to Lynne, duodenum was on-topic, Leibovitz was not. But since you asked, in German EI is invariably EYE, while IE is EE.<BR/><BR/>Around '77 I remember Larry Adler complaining about a BBC presenter's pronunciation of Leonard Bernstein as BairnshtEYEn. (Evidently she also was a German linguist.) Larry's point was that in the US everyone pronounces it Burnsteen. Then, about a year ago I saw a clip of Edward R. Murrow pronouncing it the German way too.<BR/><BR/>Back on topic, (I hope), a few years ago a venerable British lady informed me that BALcony, at the turn of the century, used to be BalCONEy. Clearly it's just as much a generational matter as a geographical one.<BR/><BR/>BTW, and entirely off-topic, I am also Pete Moor and Xcalibr39. Problem is, sometimes I can log in and post as one or other of these IDs, and other times for-the-life-of-me cannot, so I give up and post as anon.<BR/><BR/>PVMoor.<BR/>(Tagline *I was born to crash your system, Google, and there's nothing you can do to stop me*)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-33502118009253603462008-07-18T12:01:00.000+01:002008-07-18T12:01:00.000+01:00I sometimes hear people putting the emphasis on th...I sometimes hear people putting the emphasis on the second syllable in "pastoral" and "temporal". It sounds very wrong to me - I (British) put it on the first syllable in both cases. I wonder what is going on when they do this? Any ideas? Is it a normal way to say these words anywhere?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-78841539024309819102008-07-18T08:30:00.000+01:002008-07-18T08:30:00.000+01:00If stress is changing to the second syllable, does...If stress is changing to the second syllable, does that mean Okies (people, excuse me, folks, from Oklahoma) have to start saying inSURance and umBRELla like the rest of us, or do they still get to say INsurance and UMbrella? Does Britain have an equivalent to Okies?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-74863692282591298232008-07-17T15:16:00.000+01:002008-07-17T15:16:00.000+01:00This may be a silly question...but how do you pron...This may be a silly question...but how do you pronounce Annie Leibovitz if it isn't LEEbovitz?<BR/>Is it LieBOvitz? Or LIEbovitz?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-70260818745990603722008-07-17T11:23:00.000+01:002008-07-17T11:23:00.000+01:00Thanks to the anonymous US mathematician. I never...Thanks to the anonymous US mathematician. I never realised that corollary was pronounced differently in AmE. Of course, I last heard the word spoken over 25 years ago as a student in Cambridge (England) but I have read some articles and books by mathematicians since with no thought that they might be pronouncing the word differently! It makes me want to go back and read them again with the correct mental pronounciation :-) [are smileys allowed in a language blog?]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com