tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post4237745972319112939..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: pleonasmslynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger168125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-54621128909687587942021-05-06T10:30:40.655+01:002021-05-06T10:30:40.655+01:00At 10pm one evening, I could say "I'll do...At 10pm one evening, I could say "I'll do it at 4am in the morning". That would mean that I would do it at 4am the following day. (I am not excusing the Mike Oldfield lyric though; that pleonasm has always irritated me.)Neilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04789247870464462394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-6978951968078929972020-08-29T15:31:05.583+01:002020-08-29T15:31:05.583+01:00BrE (Scot, 60+). I have usd the word “combine” all...BrE (Scot, 60+). I have usd the word “combine” all of my life, but find that if I want to use a fuller version, I really, really want to say “combinED harvester”. That’s not how the invention was marketed, though.Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-13872712723115054452020-08-29T12:09:45.459+01:002020-08-29T12:09:45.459+01:00BrE (Scot, 60+) I was never taught this, so althou...BrE (Scot, 60+) I was never taught this, so although I follow current conventions, it can be a bit patchy. So Mr. and Mrs. about 80% of the time. And for me, always MoT, MoD etc.<br /> In my PowerPoint presentations, every word in a slide title starts with a capital, unless it is a short word like the or for. Apparently, it is current practice that only the first word of a title starts with a capital.Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-57092836579076614132020-03-30T20:20:04.011+01:002020-03-30T20:20:04.011+01:00As opposed to bus station?As opposed to bus station?Susannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-47300677808512047542020-03-30T20:10:19.745+01:002020-03-30T20:10:19.745+01:00The line "4am in the morning, carried away li...The line "4am in the morning, carried away like a moonlight shadow" from the song by Mike Oldfield?Susannenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-38974000526574382342020-01-23T01:44:55.653+00:002020-01-23T01:44:55.653+00:00To this American, "always good value" so...To this American, "always good value" sounded peculiar in <i>Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows</i>, where it was used by Ron about Luna Lovegood. Now I understand. Thanks!<br /><br />(The line is the same in the UK and US editions. By book 7, Rowling's editors were barely bothering with transatlantic changes.)ktsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-34987636663490823162020-01-13T09:04:41.595+00:002020-01-13T09:04:41.595+00:00Are we forgetting about roller skating?Are we forgetting about roller skating?Nicolashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09217760989341313918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-31599660687707487042019-07-20T16:08:26.843+01:002019-07-20T16:08:26.843+01:00BrE, Scot. I hear as many people say combine as th...BrE, Scot. I hear as many people say combine as the full combine harvester. I suspect that most Brits would say three in the morning, not 3 a.m. in the morning. I don’t think we are particularly fond of the 24 hour clock colloquially, we just say morning/afternoon/evening/night as opposed to a.m./p.m.Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-89636460502059401632017-08-03T16:44:31.414+01:002017-08-03T16:44:31.414+01:00Hockey vs field hockey vs ice hockeyHockey vs field hockey vs ice hockeyscunner666https://www.blogger.com/profile/10244338532079456278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-654425681010362352017-08-03T16:36:10.584+01:002017-08-03T16:36:10.584+01:00Scottish usage is differentScottish usage is differentscunner666https://www.blogger.com/profile/10244338532079456278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-16894307518315004722017-08-03T16:35:25.423+01:002017-08-03T16:35:25.423+01:00AbsolutelyAbsolutelyscunner666https://www.blogger.com/profile/10244338532079456278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-50704584555595349292017-03-23T18:13:31.275+00:002017-03-23T18:13:31.275+00:00Good point by Mrs Redboots on "opposite of pl...Good point by Mrs Redboots on "opposite of pleonasm": I've had trouble discussing hockey with Csnadians. They call it "field hockey", whereas I need to specify "ice hockey". The Olympics & World tournaments & millions of players of hockey in India & Pakistan etc seem to make little impression here as (ice) hockey seems to be Canaduans' much loved national sport.Clydesdale Jeffersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14631644050118490759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-72189954484885211562017-01-20T21:52:25.144+00:002017-01-20T21:52:25.144+00:00Of course there is more than one kind of combine, ...Of course there is more than one kind of combine, burger, harvester, riding, beet and so on. Where custom is to use an abbreviation because it will be understood, the abbreviated form will mean the type most frequently encountered, with variations identified by appropriate modifiers. Many previous comments bear this out.<br /><br />Sometimes the introduction of a new version of something results in both old and new taking modifiers. A peeve of mine for many years was 'forward slash', which was known as just (AmE) 'slash' (BrE stroke, oblique or occasionally solidus) until 'backslash' came along. This is why 'sub-total' makes 'grand total' non-pleonastic; similarly 'almost the same' may have begat 'exactly the same / the exact same'. I suspect the advent of machines required 'manual labour'.<br /><br />My very late contributions:<br />Probably originally AmE: nth year anniversary; meet up with. Probably BrE: reduce down. Probably general English: gave birth to a baby boy; safe haven.KeithDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10451059429340892054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-85183256026291996212015-12-19T03:21:06.418+00:002015-12-19T03:21:06.418+00:00I've just stumbled on some hard evidence on th...I've just stumbled on some hard evidence on the use of <i>try and</i> in the <b>Longman Grammar of Spoken and Written English</b>.<br /><br />In their four data banks, there's a clear imbalance<br />FICTION<br /><i>try to</i> 400 times per million words <br /><i>try and</i> less than 20 times per million words<br /><br />NEWS and ACADEMIC<br /><i>try and</i> less than ten times per million words<br /><br />CONVERSATION<br /><i>try to</i> 200 times per million words<br /><i>try and</i> 80 times per million words<br /><br />Often <i>try and</i> occurs in an infinitive <i>to try and</i><br /><br />NEWS and ACADEMIC<br />practically all uses are <i>to try and</i><br /><br />CONVERSATION<br />45% of uses are <i>to try and</i><br /><br />Yes, there is a dialect imbalance but <i>try and</i> is found in AmE, for example<br /><br />FICTION<br />BrE c20 times per million words<br />AmE c2 per million<br /><br />When used in FICTION it typically appears in the speech of fictional characters. <br /><br />When used NEWS and ACADEMIC it's almost always to avoid a sequence of t0-clauses. For example:<br /><br /><i>He had practiced putting on his kitchen floor at home during the winter <b>to try and prepare himself for the greens</b>.</i> (NEWS)<br /><br /><i>It follows that any teacher persuaded to adopt the innovation must be willing and able to explore modifications to his repertoire in order <b>to try and achieve the hoped-for improvement inches pupils' understanding</b>.</i> (ACADEMIC)David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-70911423427058937002015-11-02T18:16:35.895+00:002015-11-02T18:16:35.895+00:00The one thing that I (Belgian, degree in English l...The one thing that I (Belgian, degree in English language from a UK university, BrE) find rather curious is the fact that "to go and {verb}" is considered a pleonastic BrE construction by a US audience. In my experience, speakers of AmE tend to continually interlard their speech with the even more elaborate "to go AHEAD and {verb}", e.g. someone working at an event might say "Why don't you go ahead and pay your tickets at the counter" as a polite instruction. Admittedly, I have most frequent interaction with Americans from the NE US (Midwest, NY, New England), so it may just be a regionalism, but I cannot help but to suppress a little snigger whenever I hear this expression being used, as it sounds so unnatural to my BrE-trained ears.GiGi.behttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00783390183292819350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-55693335372092518722015-10-09T17:55:09.460+01:002015-10-09T17:55:09.460+01:00Philip C James: "Though no punishment is suff...Philip C James: "Though no punishment is sufficiently harsh for those who use "very unique"..."<br /><br />One of my least favorite peeves.<br /><br /><i>Everything</i> is unique. Each thing is in a different place, its atoms are not arranged in precisely the same way as anything else, it is slightly heavier or lighter, it has more or less wear, whatever. No thing is precisely the same as any other thing.<br /><br />So, let us assume that we have several special-snowflake horses (all unique, remember), but one of them stands 19 hands. Among those several unique horses, surely that giant of equine kind is more unique in some sense than the others. If you were to have a collection of (unique) 19-hand horses, one of which was also an albino, surely that would, in some sense, be still more unique. One might reasonably refer to it as, say, "very unique".<br /><br />"Unique" is either useless (as applying to everything, everywhere) or it must reasonably admit of modification. (See also "perfect", but "backwards and in high heels", so to say.)<br /><br />The discussion of modifying absolutes in the* MWDEU is also useful, as are many of the articles in that excellent book.<br /><br />Next "riding" vs. "horseback riding":<br /><br />To my AmE ears, "riding" requires modification for clarity. If I were asked to "go for a ride", that might mean "in an airplane", "in a car", "on a bicycle", or "on a horse" among many other modalities of transport. <br /><br />If I were asked to "go riding", I would assume bicycles would be involved unless I had some reason to believe my interlocutor owned horses (which would still require clarification for me). My son might include the possibility of using a snowboard, since we live near the mountains, or a skateboard, but those would not come to my mind unbidden.<br /><br />As to the difference between "horse riding" (or "riding a horse") and "horseback riding", I think the latter is a frozen idiom, at least in AmE. FWIW, I suspect the term came from "going to (N) on horseback" as opposed to "going to (N) in a carriage", but "horseback riding" is definitely idiom now.<br /><br />I should perhaps note that I learned to ride in my early teens, my wife has owned horses, my uncle was a large-animal vet and rodeo cowboy, and my cousin is a past rodeo champion. I'm not unaware of, or unused to, horses.<br /><br /><br />* For me, though <i>Merriam Webster's Dictionary of English Usage</i> would not take a definite article, the abbreviation calls out for one, I think. I'm not sure why.Doug Sundsethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12416285410276713188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-45049024380104587322015-09-28T14:26:53.142+01:002015-09-28T14:26:53.142+01:00Paul D
If somebody said to me 'I'm having...Paul D<br /><br />If somebody said to me <i>'I'm having a discussion about a combine'</i>, and If I did not know the speaker to be involved in agriculture, then I simply wouldn't be sure what he or she was talking about.<br /><br />Now if somebody said <i>'an agricultural combine harvester'</i> or <i>'a mechanical combine harvester'</i>, then I <b><i>would</i></b> see it as pleonastic — not that I think it's necessarily a bad thing.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-23671104335088712862015-09-28T02:10:44.699+01:002015-09-28T02:10:44.699+01:00I guess I'm not understanding the meaning of p...I guess I'm not understanding the meaning of pleonasm very well. But "combine harvester" is unnecessary at least. If Americans can get by just saying "combine" (with 1st syllable stress, unlike the verb), then British people could too. Not that I care either way.Paul Dnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-23490292426949977302015-09-27T03:34:22.936+01:002015-09-27T03:34:22.936+01:00Paul D
That's a very strange idea of a pleona...Paul D<br /><br />That's a very strange idea of a pleonasm. <i>Combine</i> could mean all sorts of things without the explanatory <i>harvester</i>.<br /><br />Yes, <i><b>if you're talking about farming</b></i> then we know you mean a harvester. But that doesn't make the full phrase a pleonasm.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-59286407896825181192015-09-26T23:08:58.105+01:002015-09-26T23:08:58.105+01:00One British phrase that always sounds pleonastic t...One British phrase that always sounds pleonastic to my American ears is "combine harvester". We say "combine" in America. Paul D.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-72579015389936521272015-08-25T22:03:00.763+01:002015-08-25T22:03:00.763+01:00I'm all for neoplasms: they remove ambiguity -...I'm all for neoplasms: they remove ambiguity - redundancy is required to create emotional certainty, it can be used to set a context (yeah, yeah, yeah should be banned!) and sometimes the repetition serves as emphasis.<br /><br />We should be talking about the people who get needlessly upset at their use.<br />Linguists seem to agree that we each possess three or more registers – sets of language forms and vocabulary that we use in various stations – examples are family and friends, polite and professional.<br /><br />The correction of another person's language, in all ways intelligible except for some minor 'transgression' in the ears of a listener, is peculiarly English. IMO these acts of enforcements are minor acts of bullying.<br />Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07982452842441265079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-3608740497345914532015-06-25T13:47:11.512+01:002015-06-25T13:47:11.512+01:00Surely "taxicab" is the original word, a...Surely "taxicab" is the original word, and "taxi" and "cab" merely different ways of abbreviating it? No pleonasm there.Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-27925094475139128802015-06-25T03:51:46.942+01:002015-06-25T03:51:46.942+01:00How about "taxicab"? Surely either taxi ...How about "taxicab"? Surely either taxi or cab is enough.Andy JShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15819413906544791899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-57533783577072253312015-06-09T00:17:19.866+01:002015-06-09T00:17:19.866+01:00As burgers aren't indigenous here, but have be...<i>As burgers aren't indigenous here, but have become popular, most of us probably assume that a hamburger is made of pork, a beef burger of beef, a turkey burger of turkey etc. </i><br /><br />I (CdnE) would never assume that a hamburger is made of pork, in fact I've almost never seen such a thing, the closest being patties made of mixed beef & pork.crisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-46148451606370198552015-06-05T02:53:38.440+01:002015-06-05T02:53:38.440+01:00Another phrase we use in America that I think is a...Another phrase we use in America that I think is a pleonasm, is "a wee little boy". Scottish and northern Irish people would just say "a wee boy", because "wee" means little.Jeffnoreply@blogger.com