tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post4931588664549478825..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: in/with hindsightlynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-3856019440549760052017-08-12T21:18:43.672+01:002017-08-12T21:18:43.672+01:00Or, on the third hand, perhaps it's a joke.Or, on the third hand, perhaps it's a joke.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-28797163081237195602017-08-11T15:10:38.503+01:002017-08-11T15:10:38.503+01:00Btw, I notice the Susie Dent programme has been re...Btw, I notice the Susie Dent programme has been repeated and is <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08qxd02" rel="nofollow">available</a> on the iplayer (UK only)Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-14422549081705426472017-08-11T15:01:41.272+01:002017-08-11T15:01:41.272+01:00In a letter to the Guardian of 5 Aug 2017, Dr John...In a letter to the Guardian of 5 Aug 2017, Dr John Ellis of Tavistock, Devon writes (regarding the UK govt's target of having only electric cars on our roads by 2040):<br /><br />" ... It does not need 2020 [<i>sic</i>] hindsight to see that the demands on electricity generation will rocket in order to support a nation using only electric cars..."<br /><br />He seems to be using <i>hindsight</i> to mean "foresight". Perhaps this is an isolated solecism but, on the other hand, perhaps it bodes an extension of the use of <i>hindsight</i>?Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-57494779783818711622017-06-10T22:24:57.196+01:002017-06-10T22:24:57.196+01:00As a native BrE speaker, I have always said 'w...As a native BrE speaker, I have always said 'with hindsight'. I started to hear 'in hindsight' in recent years and wondered where it had come from.<br /><br />Google Ngram viewer confirms this to an extent. In fact, it shows 'with hindsight' losing popularity since around 2002: https://goo.gl/WHBV5KAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-69192166976539280872017-06-09T19:34:53.871+01:002017-06-09T19:34:53.871+01:00I think that, when I was small, I was referred to ...I think that, when I was small, I was referred to an ophthalmologist because the local dispensing opticians didn't trust themselves to prescribe for me correctly. I suspect I was a lot more nearly blind than anybody ever let on! However, they caught it in time, and I have coped very happily with spectacles (and occasional forays into contact lenses) ever since.Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-63979500359150063292017-06-07T08:04:12.016+01:002017-06-07T08:04:12.016+01:00Thank you for your analysis and promotion of Prof....Thank you for your analysis and promotion of Prof. Wells's key words for lexical sets. On the matter of the use of IPA, though, I'd like to request readers not to use [e] to denote an English sound. The DRESS vowel is best transcribed as [ɛ]. The FACE diphthong could be transcribed as [ei] or [eɪ]. However, in the context of English, [e] is ambiguous because it's not clear whether the writer means DRESS but has instead used a character that's easier to type than ɛ, or means FACE but has simplified the diphthong.rosienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-13419000237587010002017-06-05T13:00:02.324+01:002017-06-05T13:00:02.324+01:00Cressida Dick, the most important police chief in ...Cressida Dick, the most important police chief in Britain, and one with a pressing need for communication skills has just urged us all to <b>reach out to our police</b>.<br /><br />[If you're reading this in the future and long after the event, it was in the context of a terrorist attack not many hours previously.]David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-27015896117142877952017-06-02T23:17:29.931+01:002017-06-02T23:17:29.931+01:00The two I saw yesterday had just "Opticians&q...The two I saw yesterday had just "Opticians".Paul Dormerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00611343972547300193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-35617919836289255112017-06-02T15:03:57.229+01:002017-06-02T15:03:57.229+01:00Susie Dent is wasted on radio. See https://www.you...Susie Dent is wasted on radio. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F32vWDH4eGE<br /><br />Crazy fan? The <a href="https://youtu.be/L77gk5QEZFo" rel="nofollow">potty-mouthed</a> protagonist of Countdown's <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6a7qNl1Fug" rel="nofollow">special spot</a> is surely not referring to me?!Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-36285547602182809762017-06-02T14:40:12.114+01:002017-06-02T14:40:12.114+01:00Come to think of it, my first optician (c.1964, En...Come to think of it, my first optician (<i>c</i>.1964, England) had "Ophthalmic Opticians" as their strapline. I will have to have a squint at the signs outside the premises of some of the very many opticians in town to see if this is still used.Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-55493057895220447212017-06-02T13:51:11.777+01:002017-06-02T13:51:11.777+01:00AmE has three different categories:
Ophthalmologi...AmE has three different categories:<br /><br />Ophthalmologist - Medical doctor specializing in eyes.<br />Optometrist - Doctor of optometry. Again an eye specialist with a 4-year doctorate, but apparently without the other training required of an MD.<br />Optician - One who makes eye correction devices (glasses, contact lenses).<br /><br />For more: https://www.aapos.org/terms/conditions/132Doug Sundsethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12416285410276713188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-72821957332262084762017-06-02T04:44:38.866+01:002017-06-02T04:44:38.866+01:0020/20 vs 6/6, Ophthalmologist vs optician,
As it...20/20 vs 6/6, Ophthalmologist vs optician, <br /><br />As it happens, I had a routine eye test yesterday. I had cause to mention this thread, when my optician (sic) used "20/20". I expressed surprise, saying I thought British usage was "6/6" and mentioning my earlier comment on this blog. She explained (in an echo of the <a href="https://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/squint-cross-eyed.html" rel="nofollow"> great squint/strabismus debate</a> as well as the general theme of creeping Americanisation) that she uses 20/20 now when talking to patients (clients? - can't remember what word she used) because that's the expression they mostly understand as meaning "perfect vision", and put it down to the influence of film and television. She also pointed out that I was wrong to say "ophthalmologist", because people like her, who test your eyes, are "opticians", while an opthalmologist is a far grander creature (my words, those), a consultant* specialist on a par with a consultant surgeon, to whom one might be referred by an optician.<br /><br />*Someone who is consulted (/Am with?) -- not, as I fear many a management consultant might say, someone who "consults".Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-63458616797796173252017-06-02T02:03:48.472+01:002017-06-02T02:03:48.472+01:00vp
The online OED entry for ophthalmologist is a...vp<br /><br />The online OED entry for <i> ophthalmologist</i> is a Third Edition revision. But it still doesn't have your 1821 quote. I think you should sent it to them.<br /><br />Their earliest quote is <br /><br />1826 <i> Lancet </i> 2 Sept. 719/2 Whence is it that an ophthalmologist (οϕθαλμιων) communicates this disease easily to the eye of a sound person?David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-56560087154187520412017-06-01T23:27:34.476+01:002017-06-01T23:27:34.476+01:00But many Americanisms are British archaisms.But many Americanisms are British archaisms.Paul Dormerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00611343972547300193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-42755520259177030222017-06-01T23:24:51.042+01:002017-06-01T23:24:51.042+01:00Apologies for anachronistic use of "Comonweal...Apologies for anachronistic use of "Comonwealth" in my last comment :)vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-35525674236776769812017-06-01T23:01:42.153+01:002017-06-01T23:01:42.153+01:00The earliest citation I could find for "ophth...The earliest citation I could find for "ophthalmologist" is from <a href="https://archive.org/stream/b24967762#page/12/mode/2up/search/ophthalmologist" rel="nofollow">1821</a>, from a medical treatise written by the very English-sounding "Surgeon-Oculist and Aurist to His Royal Highness the Duke of York". (This is earlier than the earliest citation from the first edition of the Oxford English Dictionary; I don't have access to the online version).<br /><br />For what it's worth, newspaper archives also seem to show the word appearing in British, Irish and Commonwealth sources earlier than American papers.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-46238786515246564732017-06-01T22:44:31.759+01:002017-06-01T22:44:31.759+01:00I think the figurative 'short-sighted' wou...I think the figurative 'short-sighted' would be the BrE for someone who couldn't think about the consequences of their actions.<br />And if you are figuratively farsighted, you have foresight! <br />Is foresight the inverse of hindsight? I think so.biochemisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02583985909434048932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-73870070778233402642017-06-01T19:10:52.185+01:002017-06-01T19:10:52.185+01:00Incidentally, is ophthalmologist itself an America...Incidentally, is ophthalmologist itself an Americanism? Chambers gives ophthalmology as the science of the eye, with no separate definition of ophthalmologist. (The word is just listed.)<br /><br />To me, the person you go to get your eyes tested is the optician (and that's what it says on their shops). Chambers does give "ophthalmic optician" as "an optician qualified both to prescribe and dispense spectacles".Paul Dormerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00611343972547300193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-54296903243969190182017-06-01T16:42:58.157+01:002017-06-01T16:42:58.157+01:00Unfortunately we also have the spellings heathen, ...Unfortunately we also have the spellings <i>heathen, sheathing, breather</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-45801735066913208702017-06-01T16:36:47.925+01:002017-06-01T16:36:47.925+01:00FPR
I can give you an answer of a sort, but it wo...FPR<br /><br />I can give you an answer of a sort, but it won't be very satisfying...<br /><br />First of all, let's sort out transcription. I think your use of the symbol <b>ɛː</b> may come from you and your husband discussing German. For English it's better to use <b>ɛ</b> or <b>e</b> for what is in all accents of English a SHORT sound.<br /><br />(In the past I've seen <b>ɛː</b> used for the vowel sound in <i>fair, square, there, their</i> — but not recently.)<br /><br />The second vowel sound in <i>endeavour</i> and first vowel in <i>ever, clever, sever</i> and the American pronunciation of <i>lever</i> is sometimes called <b>short-E</b>. A really useful term, though is <b>the DRESS vowel</b>.<br /><br />The second vowel sound in <i>believer, receiver</i> and the first vowel in <i>beaver, peever</i> and the American pronunciation of <i>lever</i> is sometimes called <b>long-E</b>. A really useful term, though is <b>the FLEECE vowel</b>.<br /><br />The names short-E and long-E were good decorations of sounds at the time that English spelling was regularised. They sounded more similar then — apart, of course, from their length — but pronunciation has changed a lot since then.<br /><br />To show the difference in length, early printers (and some scribes before them) often used the device of DOUBLE CONSONANT LETTERS to signal a short vowel sound and SINGLE CONSONANT LETTER to signal a long vowel sound.<br /><br />It's easier to find examples of this device for spellings with letters A, I, O, U, but there are some for letter E.<br /><br />FLEECE...........................DRESS<br />(single consonant).........(double consonant)<br />veto........................~......vetted<br />zero........................~......herring<br />meted out...............~......upsetting<br />query.......................~......cherry<br /><br />If all words were as simple as this, the British pronunciation of <i>lever</i>would be a no-brainer, and the American pronunciation would demand the spelling <i>levver</i>. But things are not at all that simple.<br /><br />• Modern English words with the FLEECE sound have different pronunciation histories. Some are from the original <b>long E</b> sound that existed when English spelling was regularised, but some started from different sounds. So, there are more FLEECE words spelled with <i>ea</i> or <i>ee</i> or <i>ie</i> than there are with single letter <i>e</i>.<br /><br />• Although DOUBLE CONSONANTS are often used to signal a DRESS vowel, the device isn't common to ALL consonants. And the consonant letter that's virtually never doubled is letter-V.<br /><br />So English has ended few words with the spelling <i>-ever</i> — although we have quite a few with the two possible sound combinations:<br /><br />DRESS <i>endeavour</i><br />FLEECE <i>leaver, deceiver, believer, (Danny) Deever</i><br /><br />The tiny number of words spelled <i>-ever</i> have different pronunciation histories.<br />• One is shared by <i>ever, never, whenever</i> etc.<br />• The origin of <i>clever</i> is obscure — perhaps a dialect word pronounce with a short I.<br />• <i>Fever</i> seems to have started with a 'foreign' French pronunciation.<br /><br />So did <i>lever</i> start out like <i>fever</i> and then changed in American pronunciation? Or did it start out like <i>ever</i> and then changed in British pronunciation? Either way, it would be very easy to change on the analogy of one or two out of a tiny set of apparent analogies.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-38195200925798585732017-05-31T14:09:49.672+01:002017-05-31T14:09:49.672+01:00I meant, only figuratively. I'm longsighted, ...I meant, only figuratively. I'm longsighted, in that I need reading glasses (varifocals now), but whether I'm farsighted is for others to judge.Paul Dormerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00611343972547300193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-56670213153523052832017-05-31T13:54:57.977+01:002017-05-31T13:54:57.977+01:00Paul, in North America, we use "nearsighted&q...Paul, in North America, we use "nearsighted" figuratively too... although I don't think I often hear the figurative "farsighted". And we use both to refer to eyesight as well, of course. Canadiannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-53364566196839271832017-05-30T23:59:20.760+01:002017-05-30T23:59:20.760+01:00Whereas in BrE farsightedness and nearsightedness ...Whereas in BrE farsightedness and nearsightedness tend to be used figuratively. A farsighted person is one with a vision of the future.Paul Dormerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00611343972547300193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-37248143556613433822017-05-30T14:11:03.372+01:002017-05-30T14:11:03.372+01:00@Eloise: "They, even to me, tend to talk in t...@Eloise: "They, even to me, tend to talk in terms of mild, moderate or bad short-sight or long-sight...."<br /><br />Which, in the AmE I'm familiar with would be "nearsightedness" and "farsightedness".<br /><br />(To echo the discussion in the previous thread, perhaps.)Doug Sundsethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12416285410276713188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-17964734884714652672017-05-29T19:14:31.579+01:002017-05-29T19:14:31.579+01:00I've just had my eyes tested and got a copy of...I've just had my eyes tested and got a copy of my (UK) prescription. They give the focal length of the lens required in the prescription, which is what the person making the lens requires. There's space for other stuff to correct astigmatism and so on.<br /><br />They, even to me, tend to talk in terms of mild, moderate or bad short-sight or long-sight, rather than giving numerical values. Lynne has talked at length in other posts about the infantilisation of the medical terminology in the UK compared to the US and I guess this is technically one.<br /><br />But honestly, although I normally like to know the fine details I don't care. If the optician and the person who makes my glasses get it wrong, I'm concerned, but beyond that, I don't really care that much - I know I can't see that well without glasses, I want them to give me glasses that correct it please.Eloisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00645110245532917138noreply@blogger.com