tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post5756074425289445200..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: noodleslynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger216125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-83564705350116808662020-10-21T18:07:15.869+01:002020-10-21T18:07:15.869+01:00It is some years since this topic was live, but on...It is some years since this topic was live, but only a few days since I discovered a very interesting difference between our two sides of the Atlantic. Here in the UK, lasagne (please note spelling) is based on that served in (I think) the Emilio-Romagna district - flat sheets of pasta, separated by a bolognese-style ragu and a bechamel sauce. In America, as I understand it, it is spelt lasagna and is modelled more on that served in Naples, with (possibly) more crinkled pasta sheets, a meatball sauce and the cheese layer is made of ricotta and mascarpone! So it would appear that we Brits picked up one kind of lasagne, and Americans another!Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-7388469507963655852019-07-22T18:00:56.859+01:002019-07-22T18:00:56.859+01:00BrE. Scot. Mid 60s. One of the many things I love ...BrE. Scot. Mid 60s. One of the many things I love about this blog is that so many of the regular commenters ( both sides if the Atlantic) are within a decade either way of my own age. Who would have thought that such a simple difference would generate so many replies? And so many potted histories of changing eating habits in the two countries over the years. Who says that nostalgia isn’t what it used to be.<br /><br />In my part of Scotland, Chinese restaurants appeared before other foreign food outlets. They always had a English menu section for the less adventurous, nearly always with Chicken Maryland (NOT Murlin) with chips, and banana fritters with ice cream as a dessert option.<br /><br />One one trip to Europe (can’t remember if it was Belgium or Denmark), I had lunch in the staff canteen of the establishment I was visiting. I selected a pork chop, and only just stopped the serving lady giving me what looked like spaghetti instead of potatoes. Finally, this makes sense. I always associated chicken noodle soup with the European Jewish community, but never thought about the origin of the word “noodle” till reading this post. It’s now blindingly obvious that it’s not an Asian word, even though I have always thought of noodles as Asian food. I was always aware of noodles in minestrone soup, but never made the connection with pasta. If I had thought about it, I would have assumed that the Northern European noodles were borrowed from Italy: apparently, all things Italian were the height of fashion for much of the history of the Austrian (later Austria-Hungarian) Empire. At least, that’s what I’ve been told by several different walking tour guides in different European cities.<br /><br />My father was extremely conservative in his food choices, so I didn’t have many opportunities to experiment until I left home. I finally got to try spaghetti (and macaroni, Indian food, Chinese food and pizza) when I was at university in the early to mid 70s. Noodles were attempted in the late 80s, the kind you buy dry in small blocks, usually with a sachet of chicken or curry flavouring. Recently, I wanted to stock up on these, and was astounded by the range of Asian noodle types that seem to have appeared on supermarket shelves virtually overnight.Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-78834384012896402872018-02-08T23:52:48.616+00:002018-02-08T23:52:48.616+00:00Interesting how to food-related posts always get t...Interesting how to food-related posts always get the most comments. Macaroni or pasta for Italian, noodles for Asian and things I'd classify as generic American that are probably German or some such in origin such as casseroles or noodle sides like noodles in cream sauce.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-23919516013714494292017-10-27T07:54:16.473+01:002017-10-27T07:54:16.473+01:00I’m nineteen and have lived in Utah, USA all my li...I’m nineteen and have lived in Utah, USA all my life. I just got in a little argument (more like Fell into a cultural rift) with my friend (17) from New Zealand. I said something about Lasagne *noodles* and she got very confused, saying that they weren’t noodles because noodles are things like spaghetti and yakisoba. For my entire life I’ve used pasta to mean things you add to tomato sauce (and now that I think about it usually strictly Italian type dishes that use wheat, flour, and egg pasta). I have used noodle a blanket term for everything you can boil or add to a dish and is made from wheat and water. Think every pasta is a noodle but not every noodle is pasta. I’ve been exposed to many food cultures (Indian, Chinese, Japanese, German, Italian, to name a few) and from what I can recall my mindset seems to hold true for my region. Of course there are specific noodle names, but I’ve never been called out for using noodle as a blanket term. Almost as jarring as when we encountered the reali(s/z)e disparity lol. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08137086343546367074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-23148951460623852742017-08-22T23:24:56.622+01:002017-08-22T23:24:56.622+01:00(I'm getting caught up on your old posts all a...(I'm getting caught up on your old posts all at once, sorry!)<br /><br />I'm 29, from NYC/New England (though probably worth mentioning that my parents are immigrants (from Cuba)). I use pasta as the default term. I am actually struggling to think of a time I would use the word "noodle" on its own. "Egg noodles," "Asian noodles," etc., yes, but I would never say "I'm having noodles for dinner," whereas "I'm having pasta" sounds totally normal (note I wouldn't call something like lo mein "pasta," but I'd either use the specific term "Asian noodles" or just name the particular dish).<br /><br />I do use "noodle" in the context of "chicken noodle soup." The "noodles" in the soup my mother made were very thin "fideos," which came dried in nests -- kind of like vermicelli or angel hair. Ordered in a restaurant or out of a can, I think I would expect it to have thicker, flat, wavy noodles. I do recognize that "noodles" in my mind, must be long and thin, while pasta can be any shape. Except, of course, that if someone asked me what spaetzle is, I would say "a kind of German noodle." But I would never look at spaetzle and spontaneously call it "noodles." <br /><br />Now the word noodle looks very strange.Christina C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-73823266554772134232016-12-05T01:40:12.578+00:002016-12-05T01:40:12.578+00:00I meant to say something along this line last year...I meant to say something along this line last year, and then forgot about this entire thread before suddenly stumbling onto it again.<br /><br />@pineau You've just said almost EXACTLY what I, as an American, thought. I think of macaroni and cheese as homestyle, down-home (to be a bit slangy) cooking -- not necessarily dowdy (though that may carry a different connotation in Britain than it does in America) but as a basic, everyday, non-pretentious meal, and exactly what you might get from a grandma. Certainly NOT what you'd get at an upscale restaurant.<br /><br />That said, we have a bar that is also serving rather snooty la-di-da meals, definitely with upscale pretensions, and they have fancy macaroni and cheese on their menu. You can get it with a few choices of additional stuff mixed in if you pay extra, the only one of these I can remember is bacon. I think it uses extra cheeses, not just cheddar, and it comes, as they now say, "plated" -- meaning they sort of drizzle stuff about and put little pieces of green stuff on the edge to make it pretty before they serve it. I've had it and it's good, but it isn't really the same as homemade mac'n'cheese and quite frankly it was a bit weird and not as good.<br /><br />I'm with you on this one, when did mac'n'cheese become a classy meal? A new fad in the restaurant world perhaps?Dark Star in the Morninghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04312003791405491874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-3382273780793556652016-12-05T00:38:23.585+00:002016-12-05T00:38:23.585+00:00Gah -- I think that should be spelled Lo Mein. No...Gah -- I think that should be spelled Lo Mein. Not sure....Dark Star in the Morninghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04312003791405491874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-23912612764621436132016-12-04T23:21:25.592+00:002016-12-04T23:21:25.592+00:00Vermicelli ('little worms') is a pasta noo...Vermicelli ('little worms') is a pasta noodle that's thinner than spaghetti. (Not broken spaghetti.) In BrE it's also used to refer to (AmE) chocolate sprinkles. lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-22406369966919912002016-12-04T16:19:51.222+00:002016-12-04T16:19:51.222+00:00Late to the comments party, but I wanted to point ...Late to the comments party, but I wanted to point out something that amused/confused me: "vermicelli", to me (37-year-old raised in Cleveland, OH) is rice vermicelli, generally in Vietnamese food; I didn't hear the term until I moved out of the midwest and encountered more varied Asian cuisines. From a google image search, it looks like it also means spaghetti broken into short pieces? It's not something I associate with Italian food at all.<br /><br />As for the "pasta" as pretentious -- it wasn't, by the time I was growing up, although it generally meant Italian specifically -- pierogis weren't pasta, nor were egg noodles (which I disliked as a kid, even when I loved fettuchini -- something about the texture). But there was a general sentiment that calling things by their original-language names when they hadn't been fully brought into American English and it wasn't your cultural heritage was pretentious -- or even getting the pronunciation right. Correcting "expresso" to "espresso" (when that trend hit) was seen as pretentious, correctly pronouncing bruschetta would get you weird looks, etc. I'm trying to remember some non-Italian examples, because I know there were a bunch, but I'm blanking. antimony (sarah)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14458793081074442516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-42877299188896954862016-05-03T19:23:56.068+01:002016-05-03T19:23:56.068+01:00The radio food programme The Kitchen Cabinet has j...The radio food programme <b>The Kitchen Cabinet</b> has just been on the air with a show recorded in King's Lynn. This used to be the site of <b>Cambells'</b> first soup factory outside America. And at least some of the panel of food experts took seriously Campbells' claim that they worked basically from home-made recipes — except, of course, that they cooked in vast vats. <br /><br />Most notable, one remarked that when Campbells made a condensed mushroom soup they made <br /><br /><i>'a really good mushroom veloutée'</i>.<br /><br />So, well done Lynne for spotting that ingredient!David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-86453004388654424182015-09-22T16:19:31.112+01:002015-09-22T16:19:31.112+01:00British, early 40s. Am with all the other Brits on...British, early 40s. Am with all the other Brits on the subject of pasta and noodles. I'm just posting to add that my other half, who grew up in Austria with am Austrian father and a British mother, and who therefore grew up speaking both German and English, refers to "pasta noodles" if he wants spaghetti or some other kind of pasta. He imports "noodles" for "noodle soup" - these noodles are very fine and quite short. I think they are made of pasta rather than whatever Asian noodles are made from.<br /><br />The Scottish macaroni pies contain macaroni cheese.<br />I like to cook sausages with my cauliflower cheese.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-64631379127805635462015-09-09T18:21:13.614+01:002015-09-09T18:21:13.614+01:00Western Canada, born 1983
Pasta was not a term I ...Western Canada, born 1983<br /><br />Pasta was not a term I grew up with, but now use occasionally for the Italian origin shaped items and for me pasta is a sub-set category of noodles, I've never associated noodles with Asian food in particular, that's just another sub-set category of noodles.<br /><br />I grew up with 'noddles' and the following were common individual types that all fell into that category for me:<br /><br />spaghetti, dried, served with tomato/meat sauce<br /><br />macaroni, dried, served with cheese sauce<br /><br />linguini, dried, tossed with olive oil, garlic and clams<br /><br />tortellini, fresh, tossed with oil and topped with grated cheese<br /><br />ravioli, tinned with tomato sauce<br /><br />lasagna, frozen and pre-built into a layered casserole <br /><br />ribbons (egg noodles), dried, served with butter (note I didn't know these didn't fall under the 'pasta' category until reading this post)<br /><br />ramen, dried, in an instant soup packet<br /><br />chow main, semi-dried, served with stir-fried veg & meat<br /><br />chicken noodle soup, dried in an instant soup packet -or- condensed in a tin -or- made fresh by my Oma (german grandmother)<br /><br /><br />We also ate a fair amount of perogies but I never associated them with noodles (/pasta)<br /><br /><br />As an adult I've added to the commonly found noodles in my kitchen with more pasta shapes (fusili, penne, orzo) and asian styles (udon, rice vermicelli) and german styles (spaetzle)<br /><br />also a note on dumplings; my family now eats a lot of dumplings of various asian origins (being noodle wrapped around vegetables and/or meat) and I buy them pre-made frozen. As well as perogies which I now conclude fall under the 'dumpling' category. However growing up perogies were just perogies and dumplings were something completely different; they were a cloud-like homogeneous (no filling) mass floating in my chicken soup and made by my Oma. I haven't seen such things in my adulthood.crisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-40161246387595162302015-09-08T00:32:04.374+01:002015-09-08T00:32:04.374+01:00I was walking the streets of Hoboken, New Jersey, ...I was walking the streets of Hoboken, New Jersey, today, and on Washington Street near the old Lackawanna RR terminal, passed the establishment of Planet Mac, purveyers of "gourmet mac 'n cheese".<br /><br />He or she who wouldst may surf to planetmac.com, and learn what they hath wrought with the crescent pasta tubes.JAFDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11523999754674733842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-49855973539054419812015-09-03T21:33:39.794+01:002015-09-03T21:33:39.794+01:00Yes, I missed it. I was probably stunned by the s...Yes, I missed it. I was probably stunned by the strawberry jam addition.:)Kirk Poorenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-33868261702650521602015-09-03T14:11:35.053+01:002015-09-03T14:11:35.053+01:00Kirk Poore wrote: ... from comments on this thread...Kirk Poore wrote: <i>... from comments on this thread it seems be "macaroni cheese" in BrE and "macaroni and cheese" in AmE.</i><br /><br />Yes, Kirk. That really is the usual difference. Lynne has noted it many times in many posts.<br /><br />– AiNJAnonymous in New Jerseynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-36257094514347262902015-09-02T20:12:08.683+01:002015-09-02T20:12:08.683+01:00Kirk Poore
Lynne made that point in the OP — so s...Kirk Poore<br /><br />Lynne made that point in the OP — so subtly that we didn't notice. She wrote:<br /><br /><i>my family eats Kraft <b>macaroni (AmE: and) cheese</b> with (Dad's homemade) strawberry jam on top</i><br /><br />The enormity of the content blinded us to the language used.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-49002704864081544922015-09-02T17:28:37.038+01:002015-09-02T17:28:37.038+01:00Yes, biochemist - I, too, serve hard-boiled eggs w...Yes, biochemist - I, too, serve hard-boiled eggs with my cauliflower cheese, and also top it with mashed potato/es (or sometimes breadcrumbs and cheese), but many people do make a cheese sauce whenever they serve cauliflower as a vegetable. Also with leeks....Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-65190584253714097092015-09-02T17:24:55.592+01:002015-09-02T17:24:55.592+01:00Just to note a further language difference, from c...Just to note a further language difference, from comments on this thread it seems be "macaroni cheese" in BrE and "macaroni and cheese" in AmE. A very small sample size, though.:)Kirk Poorenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-74725958708715580372015-09-02T14:30:47.062+01:002015-09-02T14:30:47.062+01:00Mrs Redboots - I can't resist saying (wildly o...Mrs Redboots - I can't resist saying (wildly off-topic) that this side-dish/main use of macaroni cheese reminds me of the British use of cauliflower cheese. In our household this is a main dish, augmented with hard-boiled eggs under the cheese sauce, but I know that one can sometimes have a scoop of something similar in the guise of the vegetable portion of a dinner. If I were to make macaroni cheese, I would use a white sauce based on a flour-butter roux and milk, with grated cheddar within and grated parmesan on top, as I do for the aforementioned cauliflower dish!<br />And, thinking again on the original topic of this thread, I would only use the word 'noodles' for Asian pasta, whether based on wheat or rice flour.biochemistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-72668942870792144872015-09-01T19:34:36.891+01:002015-09-01T19:34:36.891+01:00Dick Hartzell wrote: "I don't discount th...Dick Hartzell wrote: "I don't discount the possibility that there are places where macaroni and cheese is served as a side dish -- though macaroni salad sounds far more likely. (In salad form it's sometimes served in place of potato salad with summertime meals, such as barebecued spareribs or hamburgers and hot dogs.) But in a household with children macaroni and cheese is likely often to be the main course; it certainly was in mine while my daughter was growing up."<br /><br />Have been away for a few days, apologies for late reply. I can't speak to American households, not having been in one where cooking was a normal way of life, but certainly in American restaurants I've seen macaroni cheese served as a side dish, and others have said that this is normal in their parts of the USA. And I know a friend of mine in Kansas does rather like it occasionally as a side dish....Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90018024679520772842015-08-30T00:38:28.920+01:002015-08-30T00:38:28.920+01:00Laura wrote: Maraconi and cheese is typically serv...Laura wrote: <i>Maraconi and cheese is typically served as a main dish. In the last few years, it's become very trendy, either in "gourmet" form where it's fancied up with spices, fine cheeses, etc. -- or just plain as a tasty, rich comfort food.</i><br /><br />I don't know if it's a regional (or cultural or both) thing or if it's this way across the U.S., but macaroni and cheese has always been a side for my family, and, depending on the restaurant, it was offered as either a main or a side when I was a child.<br /><br />But one this <i>is</i> similar to your experience: it's become a fad here, too, and "gourmet" macaroni and cheese sometimes appears on menus. I know of at least one restaurant in Brooklyn that serves <i>only</i> macaroni and cheese.<br /><br />– AiNJAnonymous in New Jerseynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-46191638212258154092015-08-29T01:25:40.934+01:002015-08-29T01:25:40.934+01:00PS
I thought I'd posted ambient snacks this b...PS<br /><br />I thought I'd posted <i>ambient</i> snacks this before. Sure enough, it's in the thread on <a href="take-outs%20and%20take-aways" rel="nofollow">take-outs and take-aways</a>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-14655197039264973422015-08-29T01:20:30.457+01:002015-08-29T01:20:30.457+01:00Dick Hartzell
though I surmise they're not se...Dick Hartzell<br /><br /><i>though I surmise they're not served piping hot</i><br /><br />Yes that <b>lukewarm pasta fans</b> headline rather gives it away.<br /><br />You need tho understand that food in UK is generally exempt from so-called Value Added Tax — a pan-European framework for taxing goods and services. Rate of tax varies from European state to state (In Britain it's currently 20%), and there are different exemptions in different states.<br /><br />Now while pies — macaroni or otherwise — bought from the baker (or butcher) qualify for exemption, cooked food in restaurants, cafes etc is subject to VAT. So shops like Greggs heat their pies initially, but can't <b><i>reheat</i></b> them at time of sale as this would turn them into taxable hot food. The taxman's name for this is <i>ambient</i>.<br /><br />Alterations to tax regulations are part of the annual <b>Budget</b> announced in a speech in Parliament by the <b>Chancellor of the Exchequer</b> i.e. Finance Minister. In his first ever Budget, George Osborne listened to siren voices within the <b>Treasury</b> i.e. Finance Ministry and announced the extension of VAT to ambient food. This was immediately dubbed <i>the pasty tax</i> — a reference to Gregg's most popular ambient snack, the Cornish pasty. this resulted in a <b>much</b> bigger and angrier protest than the macaroni pie kerfuffle. Osborne was obliged to retreat on this and some other silly proposals, and the Budget was universally ridiculed as an <i>omnishambles</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-78049607781333703802015-08-28T23:04:37.161+01:002015-08-28T23:04:37.161+01:00Dick Hartzell & Mrs Redboots:
You're both...Dick Hartzell & Mrs Redboots:<br /><br />You're both right! Maraconi and cheese is typically served as a main dish. In the last few years, it's become very trendy, either in "gourmet" form where it's fancied up with spices, fine cheeses, etc. -- or just plain as a tasty, rich comfort food. Because of its new fad status, it has started appearing as a side dish on menus. However, I've never seen anyone actually ORDER it as a side dish; it's still much more common as the main meal.Lauranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-34175464403980879972015-08-28T22:26:10.531+01:002015-08-28T22:26:10.531+01:00Mrs. Redboots and Dick Hartzell - Barbecue restaur...Mrs. Redboots and Dick Hartzell - Barbecue restaurants serve mac and cheese as a side (some sorts of places have you you pick 2 or so sides out of up to a dozen options of starches and vegetables to go with your barbecued meat). I've also seen it listed on a menu under "vegetables", but that was very deep in Appalachia. But this all is specific to barbecue joints in the southeast, not for nation-wide generalization.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com