tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post5915412125195109455..comments2024-03-28T16:11:36.465+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: if I'm honest, to be honest, honestly!lynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-11477014497742489952023-06-03T00:30:44.831+01:002023-06-03T00:30:44.831+01:00this is AMAZING! I have always loved american engl...this is AMAZING! I have always loved american english and brit english! i actully want to live in California, USA and England! I can't choose. This is really helpful to help me learn more about Brit English because I live in USA rn. So thank you! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-38490831446205466942016-11-23T19:00:30.673+00:002016-11-23T19:00:30.673+00:00In many instances I would interpret "to be ho...In many instances I would interpret "to be honest" and "if I'm (being) honest" as an up-front apology for something that, to a Brit, might seem a little unwelcome, defusing the weight of the denouncement. A bit like the (I think still) AmE "Just saying", which tries the same thing after offence has been taken.<br /><br />Simon Cowell often starts his talent-show critiques with "If I'm being honest", or asks rhetorically "Can I be (completely / totally) honest with you", before being more harshly critical than is really called for, which is his usual schtik. This is not filler, mitigation or apology but more of a "Brace yourself for what's coming".KeithDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10451059429340892054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-20249843689181430892016-11-23T18:12:53.746+00:002016-11-23T18:12:53.746+00:00In text-speak "srsly" and "rlly&quo...In text-speak "srsly" and "rlly". No cross-pond distinction.KeithDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10451059429340892054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-32135824479784060952016-11-23T18:10:05.251+00:002016-11-23T18:10:05.251+00:00BrE has "Really!" or "Oh, really!&q...BrE has "Really!" or "Oh, really!" as an exasperated equivalent of "Honestly!". Neither of them have the sense of "Really?!", which I believe has more the sense of "Are you out of your mind?!" rather than "I honestly/really can't believe you said/did that!". For me a close text equivalent of the BrE meaning would be "ffs" (as a stand-alone expression of exasperation rather than a mild intensifier).KeithDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10451059429340892054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-20789582776601354832016-09-02T02:39:08.199+01:002016-09-02T02:39:08.199+01:00Two thoughts from a British person.
1. When I use...Two thoughts from a British person.<br /><br />1. When I use the phrase 'to be honest' I'm accruing thinking time as to decide whether to be brutal,sugar coat or avoid being honest at all out of politeness.<br /><br />'what did you think of my new boyfriend?'<br /><br />'To be honest I think (he's not good enough for you), (he's interesting, but I can't really see the appeal), (I've not spent long enough with him to form an opinion)'<br /><br />2. I did jury service many years ago. Halfway through his testimony the defendant said, "To be perfectly honest," as a preface to an answer. 3 female jurors picked up on it, and the implication that he hadn't been honest before that 3 point. Led to an interesting discussion in the jury room!CarolynUKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-91194396507431253302016-08-30T12:29:41.980+01:002016-08-30T12:29:41.980+01:00"His frankly differs"
Fair point.
&quo..."His frankly differs"<br /><br />Fair point.<br /><br />"the studio insisted on shifting the intonation"<br /><br />Sounds plausible.Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-87079353701548992892016-08-30T01:54:42.580+01:002016-08-30T01:54:42.580+01:00No, Zouk, it doesn't disprove my point that ...No, Zouk, it doesn't disprove my point that <i> frankly<i> <b>introduces</b></i></i> unwelcome truths. He didn't say <i>Frankly, what the Edinburgh Fringe means to me is the world</i>. <br /><br />His <i>frankly</i> differs from the introductory <i>frankly</i> in both in position and intonation. I think it was<br /><br /><i>What the Edinburgh Fringe means to ↘ME ↗FRANKLY is the ↘WORLD</i><br /><br />Of course, i could well be wrong, but what Marcus actually said doesn't prove it.<br /><br />I heard somewhere that the studio insisted on shifting the intonation from ↘DAMN to ↘GIVE. This may or may not be trueDavid Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-45822553646508070332016-08-29T23:06:38.024+01:002016-08-29T23:06:38.024+01:00I've just heard Marcus Brigstock say, on BBC R...I've just heard Marcus Brigstock say, on BBC R4's <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07q3328" rel="nofollow">Just a Minute</a> (ser. 76, ep. 4 @9'42"), "What the [Edinburgh] Fringe Festival means to me, frankly, is: the world" , which doesn't fit the theory that <i>frankly</i> introduces unwelcome truths, as in "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn".<br /><br />Incidentally, in what I hope is not an unwelcome further digression, I've always wondered about Clarke Gable's intonation of that sentence (Youtube <a href="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xLnTWxpTQt4" rel="nofollow">here</a>), as I've always othetwise heard the expression with the emphasis on the last word. Is this an Am thing or just a one-off?Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-19859244090391566952016-08-29T16:00:30.150+01:002016-08-29T16:00:30.150+01:00Sorry, Finbar link should be:
http://viz.co.uk/fi...Sorry, Finbar link should be:<br /><br />http://viz.co.uk/finbarr-saunders-double-entendres/Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-49193517598443540322016-08-29T15:48:10.832+01:002016-08-29T15:48:10.832+01:00David
I did check out smutty briefly after(!) rai...David<br /><br />I did check out <i>smutty</i> briefly after(!) raising the question and my dilatory research suggested:<br />a) Usage fell off sharply around 2006<br />b) It's probably much more Br than Am. I saw <i>raunchy</i> given as an Am equivalent, but that seems a bit strong for Mel and Sue's playful language (or what I've gleaned of it from media mentions).<br /><br /><i>I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue</i> is probably my favourite radio program. If it weren't already such an old joke, <i>innuendo</i> might certainly be defined in the Uxbridge (<i>sic</i>) English Dictionary as "an Italian suppository"*.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.asstr.org/~Finbar_Saunders/" rel="nofollow">Finbar Saunders</a> is, of course, yer man for <i>double entendres</i>.<br /><br />*Also, a girl walked into a bar an asked the barman for an innuendo ... so he gave her one!Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-14984577970319562832016-08-29T13:25:22.163+01:002016-08-29T13:25:22.163+01:00Zouk, Dark Star
It's hard to compare like wit...Zouk, Dark Star<br /><br />It's hard to compare like with like. I don't think <i>smutty jokes</i> is particularly common in British English either.<br /><br />Now Mel and Sue's humour on<b> Bake Off </b> doesn't really consist of <i><b>jokes</b></i>. A typical item seizes spontaneously (or pretends to seize spontaneously) on a word or phrase which <i><b>just might</b></i> have an unintended sexual connotation. It's playful and (apparently) uncrafted and needn't suggest anything sexual — provided that it sounds rude. The one everybody everybody remembers is <i>soggy bottom</i>. The whole thing is childish, or rather a clever simulation of children's humour.<br /><br />All the usual words for this sort of humour (as opposed to jokes) are foreign:<i> innuendo, double entenre, risqué </i>. When the innuendo points to an inescapable sexual meaning, as in <b>I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue</b>, it's possible to use the word <i>filth</i>. The late lamented Chairman Humph was describe as a <i>'purveyor of blue chip filth to Middle England'</i>. Mel and Sue's innuendo is so loosely targeted as to sound almost innocent. <i>Filth</i> is too strong a description, so it's described as <i>smut</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-8572684617986442152016-08-28T22:30:50.304+01:002016-08-28T22:30:50.304+01:00In my case, it was not so much that I might think ...<i>In my case, it was not so much that I might think the genre was beneath me, rather that others might think that of me.</i><br /><br />In other words, Paul, your love of Seanan McGuire's novels falls into the category of <i>guilty pleasure.</i><br /><br />I appreciate your honesty! And quite seriously, it puts your original comment to her, "I have to admit, I enjoyed your books", in a whole new light.<br /><br />I suppose it's possible that Ms. McGuire is unaware that as a reader of her work you don't fall into what you referred to as the "target audience." If not, she might well have been brought up short by what she took to be a backhanded compliment. Alternatively, if you were the first 60-something Briton to approach her at this science fiction convention she might have realized what you were driving at -- and cut you some slack.<br /><br />Or perhaps she was just engaging in the slightly mean-spirited act of serious kidding.Dick Hartzellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07065924271517452841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-66613046204018179632016-08-28T21:41:55.054+01:002016-08-28T21:41:55.054+01:00Smutty, yes, at least enough to know what you'...Smutty, yes, at least enough to know what you're talking about, but (at least for my my part of the US and my generation) I'd be more more likely to say dirty jokes or off-color jokes.<br /><br />Perhaps food for another column if it hasn't been covered already?<br />Dark Star in the Morninghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04312003791405491874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-30860391455647996402016-08-28T19:29:40.539+01:002016-08-28T19:29:40.539+01:00David
Each to his own; I think I will continue no...David<br /><br />Each to his own; I think I will continue not to watch it, but then, I have a bit of a "thing" about sugar. I do like smutty* jokes, though!<br /><br /><br />Yes, I think the "frankly" here was partly an artificial attempt to introduce a further phrase in the semantic category; I probably wouldn't have used it there normally.<br /><br />*Is this word Am as well as Br?Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-23123464991981436462016-08-28T19:19:27.909+01:002016-08-28T19:19:27.909+01:00Paul
Apologies if I misinterpreted your words. As...Paul<br /><br />Apologies if I misinterpreted your words. As for the book, I must admit I'm not tempted to go out and buy it, despite (because of?)the similarity of our demographic profiles.Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-60391466794463605302016-08-28T19:16:23.990+01:002016-08-28T19:16:23.990+01:00Zouk Delors
I love the Great British Bake Off. I ...Zouk Delors<br /><br />I love the Great British Bake Off. I foolishly missed the first half of it on Wednesday so I just had to see it on the iPlayer. And having started, i watched the second half again. Just as well, because I hadn't noticed Candace's <i>if I'm honest</i> the first time round.<br /><br />Personally, I confine <i>I have to admit</i> to making points which don't support my argument or stated position, but are worth making anyway. I don't think I could say <i>I have to admit I enjoyed your books</i>, but I could conceivably say <i>I must say i enjoyed your books</i>.<br /><br /><i>Frankly</i> is different again. I use it like Rhett Butler to mean 'This isn't what you want to hear but I'm going to say it anyway'.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-88489150563928501822016-08-28T18:45:11.707+01:002016-08-28T18:45:11.707+01:00In my case, it was not so much that I might think ...In my case, it was not so much that I might think the genre was beneath me, rather that others might think that of me.<br /><br />To give details, the author was Seanan Mcguire, who writes a series of books about a young woman who fights monsters in New York city whilst trying to make a name as a competitive ballroom dancer. The books are obviously influenced by Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I am a sixty-something male, perhaps not perceived as part of her target audience.Paul Dormerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00611343972547300193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-28082832022182251432016-08-28T16:51:12.381+01:002016-08-28T16:51:12.381+01:00Frankly, I can vividly imagine David Crosbie writi...Frankly, I can vividly imagine David Crosbie writing, "Although I only watched The Great British Bake-off for research purposes, <i>I have to admit</i> I quite enjoyed it." -- with the same implication as in the (non-imaginary) sci-fi example: perhaps suggesting that the genre really should be beneath him.<br /><br />David, I hope this is not rude to you (or the sci-fi author and fan); I did say "frankly" (non-pleonastically) first.<br /><br />Full disclosure: I actually love sci-fi (short stories in particular), but have never watched the Bake-Off.Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-40843341232798814962016-08-28T16:34:17.901+01:002016-08-28T16:34:17.901+01:00Lynne said:
No, I meant what I said. To me, they ...Lynne said:<br /><br /><i>No, I meant what I said. To me, they seem related. Why preface what you're saying with a hard-to-believe announcement that you are compelled to say it?</i><br /><br />Aren't expressions like "I have to admit" or "I have to say" simply examples of <i>pleonasms?</i> It seems to me you covered these linguistic redundancies in a previous post.<br /><br />However much these phrases may be seen either as social grace notes or as ridiculous superfluities they also work to announce that an opinion is on the way. It seems to me they're the verbal equivalent of clearing your throat.Dick Hartzellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07065924271517452841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-57821252840981566202016-08-28T15:06:56.248+01:002016-08-28T15:06:56.248+01:00I am reminded of my father's joke, of the smal...I am reminded of my father's joke, of the small boy who went out to lunch and was told, by his mother before he went, to praise his hostess' cooking.<br /><br />"I must say, Mrs Bloggs, this is very good!"<br />"Oh, do you really think so?"<br />"Well, no - but I must say so!"<br /><br />To the extent that "I must say" has become family code for "This next statement is untrue", which I stress again is family code and not how it is generally used.<br /><br />As for "Honestly!" I think our American friends may be misunderstanding how it is used in the UK - not as an emphasis on truth, but an expression of exasperation: "Honestly, darling, couldn't you even have done the washing-up while I was out?" Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-17630262873748575582016-08-28T14:03:38.055+01:002016-08-28T14:03:38.055+01:00I've been thinking along the same lines as Aut...I've been thinking along the same lines as Autolycus — except that I don't think there's any <b>conscious</b> thinking involved. So I wouldn't use a word like <i>alert</i> for the speech act involved.<br /><br />I have a fuzzy recollection of what Lynne has said in the past about British discourse being more indirect than American. This makes sense to me if expressed in terms of <i>etiquette</i>. Not prescribed etiquette but instinctive <b> feelings</b> as to what is socially acceptable.<br /><br />Perhaps it's part of a bigger feature — the 'face-saving' principle that pragmatists say underlies politeness. Perhaps the added <i>honesty, to be honest, if I'm honest, I must admit, I have to say</i> serve to mitigate <b>assertions</b> is the same way that <b>please, I wonder if you could</b> mitigate <b>commands</b>.<br /><br />There are rational reasons for mitigating commands. Nobody likes to be bossed around by speakers without authority. It's less clear why we choose to mitigate assertions. OK, some people suffer a constant lack of confidence, but assertion-avoidance seems to be too common to be explained this way. My hunch his that we Brits unthinkingly recognise some speech situations as <b>platforms</b> and others as <b>meetings of minds</b>. In a platform setting we feel no social constraints on 'speaking our mind'. In meeting-of-minds setting there's an underlying imperative to keep one's hearers at ease. <br /><br />'Small talk' is the basic example of meeting-of-minds discourse. Typically it works by <b>selection</b>. If we have strong views and clear perspectives, we generally feel more comfortable in not expressing them. This is OK because small talk is essentially aimless in its content. But other meetings-of-minds settings do have an aim, one that can only be realised by exchanging information or opinions. Selection is not an option, so we represent our assertions as <b>unavoidable necessities</b>.<br /><br />As I see it, we use <i>please, I wonder if you could</i> etc <b>judiciously</b>. We comfortable use imperatives in speech acts that are no threat to 'face' e.g. <i>Put it there, Tell me... have one of mine</i> etc. But we scatter these <i>honestly</i> etc markers at random, so that they can attach to assertions that are totally 'face'-neutral such as <i>I enjoyed your books</i>. Somehow the untarget(t)ed deployment of these disclaimers makes us feel that we're not 'bigmouths' rocking the social boat.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-73053803423439551382016-08-28T12:19:57.457+01:002016-08-28T12:19:57.457+01:00I think these are to alert the listener (whether g...I think these are to alert the listener (whether genuinely honestly or not) that the speaker is about to be candid and direct, where native BrE speakers would normally be attuned to indirect/disguised expressions of meaning, which may well be very different from the surface meaning of the words used.<br /><br />You could also see "Honestly!" in the same light, although the candid and direct statement of feeling it might have been about to precede is simply allowed to be assumed, and is unspoken.Autolycushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17642868944400656922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-59381050981547904252016-08-27T22:19:03.442+01:002016-08-27T22:19:03.442+01:00No, I meant what I said. To me, they seem related....No, I meant what I said. To me, they seem related. Why preface what you're saying with a hard-to-believe announcement that you are compelled to say it?lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-24698882627117644412016-08-27T20:21:41.405+01:002016-08-27T20:21:41.405+01:00My English spouse is the master of "I have to...<i>My English spouse is the master of "I have to say...".</i><br /><br />Lynne: with reference to Paul Dormer's comment immediately preceding yours, did you actually mean to write "I have to admit ..." instead of "I have to say ..."?<br /><br />Certainly Dormer's comment to the author would have sounded quite different (to me, at least) if he'd said "I have to say I enjoyed your books." I also doubt the author would have responded by remarking "Why do you have to say it?"Dick Hartzellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07065924271517452841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-53078952330819355552016-08-27T20:04:18.770+01:002016-08-27T20:04:18.770+01:00My English spouse is the master of "I have to...My English spouse is the master of "I have to say...". I tend to reply "Oh do you, now?" But then I noticed that I say it too. Looking at the internet numbers, it doesn't seem to be either British or American, but it's very possibly used much more by some individuals than others...lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.com