tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post6190501253069275901..comments2024-03-28T16:11:36.465+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: (the) Gambia, (the) Lebanon, etc.lynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger72125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-73681640223513014952022-12-23T16:06:35.651+00:002022-12-23T16:06:35.651+00:00Very late response: using "the" with fre...Very late response: using "the" with freeways is more common in southern California; in northern California we "take 101" (though I have also heard "the Bayshore freeway").Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-11171847536289676622021-12-11T11:07:13.062+00:002021-12-11T11:07:13.062+00:00No, all countries do NOT have the definite article...No, all countries do NOT have the definite article in Arabic. They are definite nouns, but they don't take al- unless in specific cases. So al-Urdan, as-Soomaal etc, but Filastin, Lubnan, Suria, Masr etc - no definite article.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02854084169944193429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-77486213990384415212020-10-16T17:46:59.503+01:002020-10-16T17:46:59.503+01:00I didn't see mentioned: The Crimea ( "cli...I didn't see mentioned: The Crimea ( "cliffs", I believe ). Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-77877086244798588722020-06-08T10:16:58.275+01:002020-06-08T10:16:58.275+01:00As a southern Englishman, I quickly had my card ma...As a southern Englishman, I quickly had my card marked when visiting their parts of the world to say 'Shetland' and 'Orkney' (with or without a trailing 'Islands'), but never 'the Shetlands' or 'the Orkneys'.<br /><br />Similarly, I quickly learned that 'Færoe' is disliked in those beautiful islands, as it smacks of Danish overlordship. Therefore, for me, it's 'the Faroe Islands' if mentioning the place once or unexpectedly, and 'Faroe' if in a context where it's coming up regularly.<br /><br />Great post lynneguist - thank you.<br /><br />- SteveSteve Phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01619449117122166913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-83098526087328715562017-08-12T21:15:38.237+01:002017-08-12T21:15:38.237+01:00But “The Uruguay” refers to the river Uruguay whic...<i>But “The Uruguay” refers to the river Uruguay which separates Argentina from Uruguay,</i><br /><br />If this had been more widely known in the past, we'd now be calling the country The Uruguay — analogous to The Congo, The Gambia<br /><br />Assuming <br />(a) that Wikipedia is to be believed and <br />(b) that i have read the various articles correctly, <br />the names of Argentina and Uruguay stem from regional names within larger Spanish political entries: <br /><br />The <b>Viceroyalty of the River Plata</b> under Spain included a region named by an Italian explorers with the Italian name <i>Argentina</i>. Beyond the rule of the Spanish Crown was a region with Spanish settlers known as known as <b> Band Charrúa, Banda Otra </b> ('the far bank)' and finally <b> Banda Oriental</b>.<br /><br />This name became important when the Portuguese seized this and neighbouring regions, forming them as the Province of <b> Cisplatina</b> 'this side of the River Plate'. So <b>'East Bank '</b> was for the Spanish-speakers a political term reminiscent of the Middle East's <b>West Bank</b> in today's political parlance. No need to specify which river it refers to.<br /><br />The Viceroyalty became independent and split into states which took their names from war heroes or — for Buenos Aires — form the Italian regional name of<b> Argentina</b>.<br /><br />What had become part of <b>Cisplatina</b> broke free from Brazil and avoided being absorbed by Argentina — thanks to British intervention. As an independent state it adopted its longer, more explicit formulation with <b>Uruguay</b> inserted— butwith out the notion of 'bank'.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-16564590066542431192017-08-12T14:09:36.614+01:002017-08-12T14:09:36.614+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-43056138531068383092017-08-11T10:24:03.650+01:002017-08-11T10:24:03.650+01:00I know that this is a very old discussion, but I j...I know that this is a very old discussion, but I just came across it recently while searching for something else.<br /><br />A word on “The Argentine”. As other commentators have said, in Spanish it is correct to call it “La Argentina”. But the reason for that is because in Spanish it is an adjective (and I speak as someone who has lived in that country. The full name of the country is La República Argentina. It might have been called “El País Argentino” or “El Territorio Argentino”, in which case it might have been shoprtened to “El Argentino”, but of course wasn’t. It is for this reason that the word “Argentinian” is an unnecessary replacement for “Argentine” as an adjective in English.<br /><br />More interesting though is the Spanish name for Uruguay. Its formal name in Spanish is “La República Oriental del Uruguay”, which translates as “The Republic Oriental (or Eastern) of the Uruguay”. At first sight this seems strange. On a map of the world, Uruguay is nearly as far west as one can get, with only two countries of any size between it and the international date line. But “The Uruguay” refers to the river Uruguay which separates Argentina from Uruguay, so the full and formal name for the country might better translate as “The Republic Oriental to the River Uruguay”.<br /><br />Perhaps this model could be used by other countries. France as “The Republic Austral to the River Rhine” or the USA as “The Federal Republic Boreal to the Rio Grande”.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00627371648978549527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-87109799686416801642017-06-03T17:26:29.934+01:002017-06-03T17:26:29.934+01:00Anonymous: It is not that case that Lebanon is pro...Anonymous: It is not that case that Lebanon is pronounced "al-Lubnan" in Arabic, it is in fact just "Lubnan". Certainly no native speaker would say "I am from the Lebanon," or "Ana min al-Lubnan"; one might instead say "I am from the Lebanese Republic", or "Ana min al-Jomhoriya al-Lubnaniya" but then the "the" applies to "Lebanese", and not "Lebanon".<br /><br />David Crosbie: It is also not the case that all countries have the definite article in Arabic.<br /><br />In fact, in Arabic, certain country names are preceded with "al" (an equivalent of English "the"), while others are not, and the choice is rather arbitrary as far as I can tell. For example, here are the Arabic names of the countries from the table in the original post, where "al" denotes "the":<br /><br />Congo -> Congo<br />Gambia -> Gambia<br />Ukraine -> Okranya<br />Lebanon -> Libnaan<br />Argentina -> al-Arjenteen<br />Sudan -> al-Sudaan<br /><br />Going through a list of more countries and their Arabic names, I could not figure out any pattern for when the "al" applies, and when it does not. Consider,<br /><br />Preceded by "al":<br />- Argentina -> al-Argentine<br />- Brazil -> al-Barazeel<br />- China -> al-Seen<br />- India -> al-Hind<br />- Japan -> al-Yabaan<br />- Portugal -> al-Portugal<br />- Yemen -> al-Yaman<br /><br />Not preceded by "al":<br />- Canada -> Canada<br />- Egypt -> Misr<br />- France -> Faransa<br />- Russia -> Rusiya<br />- Spain -> Espanya<br />- Tunisia -> Tunis<br /><br />Now, the rules become much clearer when a country is identified by its full formal name. For example, "The Lebanese Republic" becomes "al-Jomhoriya al-Lubnaniya" with the "al" preceding both "Republic" and "Lebanese". However, "The Republic of Egypt" becomes "Jomhoriyat Misr", without the "Al" for either case; if one (incorrectly) refers to "The Egyptian Republic", it becomes "al-Jomhoriya al-Misriya", with the "al" restored.F Saadhttp://fsaad.scripts.mit.edu/randomseed/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-46207124670370589552017-01-20T23:38:05.327+00:002017-01-20T23:38:05.327+00:00Yes, and that is Hieronymus Bosch's native tow...Yes, and that is Hieronymus Bosch's native town; his painterly name comes from the town's name (see, for example, Leonardo da Vinci, or Merisi who came from the town of Caravaggio).<br /><br />But The Bronx, I believe, is not named for the river in that borough. Rather, it derives from the Bronck family that were the original Dutch founders of the village: the Broncks. The river took the family name in plural form. And the "cks" became "x."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05841813205025043141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-85153915730601907382016-10-20T18:42:31.251+01:002016-10-20T18:42:31.251+01:00Thanks so much to Anonymous for the comment on the...Thanks so much to Anonymous for the comment on the possible reason why Brits often say "the Lebanon" and "the Sudan": the "the" is translated from the Arabic al-Lubnan or al-Sudan. When I am in Dubai, everyone looks at me in wonder when I say "the Lebanon". They all say "Lebanon" and wonder why I use the definite article. My family over in Dubai are Lebanese, Canadians and Swiss. I am the only Brit (also Swiss and Irish) and grew up in London, thus I always heard "the Lebanon". Now this is a lovely explanation!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-52072703118355210782016-10-11T11:15:15.408+01:002016-10-11T11:15:15.408+01:00How about the United Kingdom? That's also an a...How about the United Kingdom? That's also an adjective modifying a generic noun.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09020407499270807318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-83288078924178599762016-09-24T05:57:46.907+01:002016-09-24T05:57:46.907+01:00I would like to enter 'the Dalles' into th...I would like to enter 'the Dalles' into the discussion. caspmcthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15127705802665513871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-60485774451032642812014-03-11T19:35:35.523+00:002014-03-11T19:35:35.523+00:00Denys
The word derives from a time long before th...Denys<br /><br />The word <b>derives</b> from a time long before the existence of distinct Russian and Ukrainian languages and nationalities. <br /><br />The rest of the world discovered the word as used by expanding Imperial Russia. Seen from Moscow, it was a region on the periphery to be taken from the Tatars, Ottomans, Hungarians, Poles, Lithuanians, Swedes or whoever else was temporally in charge of it, or part of it.<br /><br />As a cultural space that was not so much conquered as liberated by friendly Moscow, we would use the other Russian term <i>Little Russia</i>. What the locals called the place was their own affair.<br /><br />We had the linguistic equivalent in Medieval England. As we expanded into Wales, we termed the region on the border as The (Welsh) Marches.<br /><br />In Africa, the colonial powers identified regions for potential expansion by names such as <b>The Gambia, The Congo, the Sudan</b>. The names remained after successful colonisation, though in English we had to distinguish between <b>The Belgian Congo</b> and <b>The French Congo</b> and between <b>The French Sudan</b> and <b>The Anglo-Egyptian Sudan</b>.<br /><br />In South America, Spain identified a region as <b>The Argentine</b> before and after colonising it.<br /><br /><b>The Lebanon</b> and <b>The Yemen</b> were areas within the Ottoman Empire which we saw as regions rather than provinces at the time that we began to speak and write of them in English.<br /><br />It's an English language trick. Russian has no definite article to make the distinction. Spanish, French and Arabic use their definite articles for political states and regions equally. We added <b>The</b> to show our understanding of how the foreign colonisers saw the areas. <br /><br />It used to be a quirky anomaly, but right now everybody is speaking seriously of <b>Ukraine</b> without the colonising article.<br /><br />We have another frontier region in Great Britain, named by both England and Scotland as <b>The Borders</b>. It has no political identity — that is no serious and genuine political identity. For a time legal documents referred to <i>England and Scotland and Berwick-upon-Tweed</i>, the last-named being a border town now firmly within England. Because this formula was not used in peace treaties, the joke used to be that Berwick was still technically at war with much of continental Europe. For all I know, they may be at war with the United States of America.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-56517030218526597882014-03-10T23:55:08.549+00:002014-03-10T23:55:08.549+00:00Ukraine derives from Ukrainian "країна" ...Ukraine derives from Ukrainian "країна" - country and not from Russian "край" - corner, border, edge. By the way...OFPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05439065155439076599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-45791935682132679552014-03-08T20:39:46.822+00:002014-03-08T20:39:46.822+00:00's Hertogenbosch's Hertogenbosch<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-86374225156954863752012-11-27T10:07:52.374+00:002012-11-27T10:07:52.374+00:00Anonymous
Yes, but all countries have the definit...Anonymous<br /><br />Yes, but <b>all</b> countries have the definite article in Arabic. So now you have to explain why don't have <i>the</i> in other country names that might have come from Arabic.<br /><br />(Not that <i>Lebanon</i> comes to us from Arabic.)David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-86670313359212698912012-11-25T03:27:06.361+00:002012-11-25T03:27:06.361+00:00Might I opine that the "the" in "th...Might I opine that the "the" in "the Lebanon" and "the Sudan" come from a direct translation of the Arabic - al-Lubnan and al-Sudan respectively where they do take the definite article.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-65439767010876586262012-08-26T12:23:52.898+01:002012-08-26T12:23:52.898+01:00Is there any other major place name whose official...<i>Is there any other major place name whose official name ('s Gravenhage) begins with an apostrophe?</i><br /><br />Yorkshire is full of them. 'Ull, 'Alifax, 'Uddersfield, 'Eckmondwyke'...<br /><br />Je vais chercher mon manteau.<br /><br />enitharmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17829757748223670291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-45651199774135232722012-08-26T07:47:48.054+01:002012-08-26T07:47:48.054+01:00Doug Sundseth asked: Is there any other major plac...Doug Sundseth asked: <i>Is there any other major place name whose official name ('s Gravenhage) begins with an apostrophe?</i><br /><br />Yes: 's-Hertogenbosch (pop. 142,000). And just as 's-Gravenhage (originally des Graven hage: the count's hedge) has the alternative form Den Haag, so 's-Hertogenbosch (originally des Hertogen bosch: the duke's wood) has the alternative form Den Bosch.<br /><br />On another matter, David Crosbie writes that: <i>Before it was a political entity, [Yemen] was a region within Arabia. 'The Right Hand Side' if you were facing south.</i><br /><br />Isn't it "the right-hand side as you face east" (i.e. the south)?<br /><br />In Welsh the words <b>de</b> = <i>south</i> and <b>de</b> = <i>right(-hand)</i> similarly share a facing-the-rising-sun standpoint.Kevinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-42628849551132694752012-08-23T01:13:44.001+01:002012-08-23T01:13:44.001+01:00Anonymous
Has no one got anything to say about Th...Anonymous<br /><br /><i>Has no one got anything to say about The Yemen?</i><br /><br />Before it was a political entity, it was a region within Arabia. 'The Right Hand Side' if you were facing south.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1738895315319850922012-08-22T20:27:27.990+01:002012-08-22T20:27:27.990+01:00Has no one got anything to say about The Yemen?Has no one got anything to say about The Yemen?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-57941343858128996882012-08-07T00:39:26.477+01:002012-08-07T00:39:26.477+01:00Everyone in the United Kingdom uses the abbreviati...Everyone in the United Kingdom uses the abbreviation <i>the UK</i>. And yet expatriate Brits — at least Brits in some expat communities — say things like <i>'back in UK'</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-35682058595236211062012-08-05T15:04:31.970+01:002012-08-05T15:04:31.970+01:00In response to nmmad:
I notice that all the peopl...In response to nmmad:<br /><br />I notice that all the people names that could be either singular or plural would be awkward to add an 's' to: *Frenches, *Englishes, *Spanishes, *Swisses, etc. All the ones that can only be singular take an 's' very easily, without having to add another syllable: Germans, Danes, Latvians, etc.Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14644859183662353936noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-60595683803502194482009-03-24T10:51:00.000+00:002009-03-24T10:51:00.000+00:00I have lived in Ukraine and was also told off ster...I have lived in Ukraine and was also told off sternly for using 'the' before the name, but never managed to find out why it offended Ukrainians, who don't use articles in their language (or, indeed, Russian).<BR/><BR/>I feel that Ukrainians may have been influenced by ENGLISH speakers who have told them that using the 'the' sounds colonial, as per comments above. There just doesn't seem to be a native reason for it. After all, Ukraine is Russian/Ukrainian for 'on the edge' or 'on the border' - doesn't that provide more grounds to be offended?<BR/><BR/>Related point: I attended the University of East Anglia in Norwich (fine linguistics classes!). Students, faculty and the instituion itself called it just 'UEA' (eg '...at UEA...'), wheras locals, including local staff, referred to 'the UEA'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-38282448875423848192008-11-13T23:42:00.000+00:002008-11-13T23:42:00.000+00:00Your post does a very good job of answering my fir...Your post does a very good job of answering my first question (the Sudan, and so on).<BR/><BR/>Now I'm wondering why the Monument in London is known as just "Monument". Any ideas?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com