tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post6641019127996531613..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: Not One-Off Britishismslynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-13663589096498817702019-05-27T09:53:59.504+01:002019-05-27T09:53:59.504+01:00BrE. Scot. Mid 60s. If I’ve heard of a talk show, ...BrE. Scot. Mid 60s. If I’ve heard of a talk show, it hasn’t registered. I somehow thought that “chat show” was AmE. It’s probably that word “show”. Having spent most of my life talking about tv programmes, I’m afraid that I tend to over-react when I hear trailers for “tv shows”.<br /><br />Given the topic of this post, does anyone else se the irony that Briticism rhymes with criticism?Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-65043998646099916162017-01-27T19:35:53.293+00:002017-01-27T19:35:53.293+00:00Fnarf said: "soccer being of course a perfect...Fnarf said: "soccer being of course a perfectly English word coined in England by an Englishman".<br /><br />Yes, and used quite happily over here for many years, but not recently.<br /><br />Personally I think the Brits who object to Americans calling our game 'soccer' are not really objecting to that <i>per se</i> but to Americans calling the US game 'football'. So: "<b>We</b> invented football, and if any game has the right to be called 'football' it's <b>our</b> game, not yours, so call yours something else". I suspect a similar emotional reaction could underlie other British objections to American meanings - eg a Brit invented the waistcoat, so don't call it a vest, which is in fact a different garment - which we probably also invented.<br /><br />If you could see my tongue you would notice how firmly it is in my cheek.KeithDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10451059429340892054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-57399421206699221592013-09-24T19:57:36.065+01:002013-09-24T19:57:36.065+01:00Michael Taft's Pre-War Blues Concordance sampl...Michael Taft's <b>Pre-War Blues Concordance</b> samples an interesting body of sung speech, largely composed in a manner that produced similar texts, similarly performed, whether the singer was literate or not. How they sang was almost invariably how they spoke.<br /><br /><b><i>Dreamt</i></b> is found in only three records by two singers, both from Mississippi (although one lived in Memphis) — as opposed to nineteen instances of <i><b>dreamed</b></i>. There are no instances of <i>spoilt, learnt, spelt</i>.<br /><br />Not conclusive, or course. But It does suggest that <i>dreamt</i> might have been more common than the others in Southern Black speech — and just possibly in Souther White speech.<br /><br />I found a 1904 cylinder recording online of a American singer performing <i>I dreamt I dwelt in Marble Halls</i>. But then I realised that any singer performing from a written text would do the same.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-13492273391496581042013-09-24T18:59:46.782+01:002013-09-24T18:59:46.782+01:00I never would have imagined that "dreamt"...I never would have imagined that "dreamt" or other past tense by adding "t" constructions were gained from anywhere in the UK at all recently (as opposed to when the area became populated by English-speakers). I grew up in East Tennessee where the dialect is a combination of Southern American English and Appalachian English. Both the vocabulary and the accent are different enough that some speakers of General American can't understand it. The area is fairly insular for the US, with fewer people moving in or out, and a stubborn pride against yankees (northerners) who think our talk marks us ignorant hillbillies. Maybe the dialect is more resistant to change, especially the stigmatized differences.<br /><br />There are lots of things more common there than elsewhere in the US. Dreamt, leapt, spelt, spoilt and similar -t's. (Though "learnt" is very old-fashioned.) Have the -ed's, too. We "reckon so" as readily as we "figure that", informally. "Ought", "ought to", "ought not", and "oughtn't" are common. We have "wh" and we kept double modals.<br /><br />I would be very surprised that if any of these weren't part of the area's English from the start. If not, surely the words in that dialect that are more common to British English is coincidence and no more Britishisms than much of American English is. Can't be creeping influence if we've had it since there was an us.<br /><br />I'm not surprised that some think -t's are taken from BrE. Not long ago, someone (GenAmE) insisted to me that "dreamt" isn't a word, so I figured people who think it doesn't belong in the US probably invent some justification.<br /><br />Maybe funny anecdote: While I say I grew up in East Tennessee, I haven't lived there since I was 12. Being young and in school, I quickly lost my Southern accent with only traces remaining. I didn't, however, lose the region's vocabularly or grammatical peculiarities. So I spoke (and speak) Southern/Appellachian English in a largely General American accent with a hint of Southern. Before I was 20, more than half a dozen people wanted to know if I was British and at least as many remarked on me sounding British. Of those who thought I was British, Canadian was their second guess. All but one were American themselves, ranging coast-to-coast. (The exception was Australian. He was sure I didn't sound American.) I confirmed it wasn't accent, so much, that got them thinking that. Talk about being seen as anything but one-off Britishisms, people have thought my words mark me as British!AnyBethnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-75488238007117264962012-12-20T00:55:01.565+00:002012-12-20T00:55:01.565+00:00"Briticism" sounds just right to me. As ..."Briticism" sounds just right to me. As Dunce previously pointed out, It was formed on the model of words such as "Wallicism," "Anglicism" and "Scotticism." In France, we call a characteristically English word, phrase or idiom "un anglicisme." "Britishism" sounds to my French ears as jocular as "Spanishism" for "Hispanism," Welshism" for "Wallicism" or Frenchism" for "Gallicism."Elianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16930398121025074531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-19368364078047416142012-08-26T22:34:25.237+01:002012-08-26T22:34:25.237+01:00She would have been corrected on 'colour' ...She would have been corrected on 'colour' and 'centre' (unless in the name of something) as those are not AmE spellings. 'Grey' alternates. I have no problem with that. It is the teacher's job in an American school to teach American spelling standards, just as I correct my English students who write 'behavior' (but not before I look for a source that they might have plagiari{z/s}ed from!).lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-20184336167574197622012-08-26T21:03:55.402+01:002012-08-26T21:03:55.402+01:00Yagoda's very prescriptive approach to usage h...Yagoda's very prescriptive approach to usage has prompted me to ask a question that's bothered me for thirty-odd* years.<br /><br />If we'd spent enough time in upstate NY in the 1980s for my daughter to attend the local elementary school, and she had written 'colour' or 'grey' or 'centre' in her work, would she have been corrected? Or would those spellings have been treated as valid alternatives (as I think they ought to be)?<br /><br />A BrE-speaking friend resident in Switzerland was alarmed that he small daughter's teacher corrected her "mummy" to "mommy", which admittedly wasn't about an American teacher but a Swiss teacher who had learned AmE. It seemed very harsh to me.<br /><br /><br />*Is this a usage in AmE?enitharmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17829757748223670291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-86624575913567236932011-08-21T07:59:03.936+01:002011-08-21T07:59:03.936+01:00I find the site more amusing than anything else. D...I find the site more amusing than anything else. Doesn't seem to be especially scientific nor seriously peevish. Many of the usages he mentioned, I don't know at all. Can't be too widespread. <br /><br />I grew up reading English and American literature, and I didn't always know which was which. (That was in the Sixties, and those books were mostly old then. I doubt that modern lit carries so well.) I love the old poetic phrases that abounded in the nineteenth century.<br /><br />Anyway, I didn't know that 'amongst' was considered British till the last few years. <br /><br />Oh,LBS: We (here in California's redwoods) call that a "plaid flannel shirt." Very popular in these parts.Juliehttp://www.julieannmaahs.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-36562740947981096912011-07-04T18:10:46.191+01:002011-07-04T18:10:46.191+01:00I only ever came across "atop" in the Na...I only ever came across "atop" in the National Geographic Magazine which I read as a child, referring to somebody in a tartan lumberjacket against a background of mountain scenery.Little Black Sambohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16699227938165106710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-26296699721134248402011-04-17T19:55:57.562+01:002011-04-17T19:55:57.562+01:00None of his problems seemed particularly egregious...None of his problems seemed particularly egregious to me, but the "amongst" thing does annoy me. Mostly I agreed with him in places where AmE had an identical meaning (e.g. tinning) and disagreed on everything else.<br /><br />I've always spelled it gray, but that's how I pronounce it, so it's just personal preference. The one that always gets me is disc (preferred by everyone) vs. disk (the one I instinctively use). I know it's a Latin import, but it's a hard c, so a k works just as well.Schwalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12425773164761448727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-33649289833846554182011-04-13T06:45:19.693+01:002011-04-13T06:45:19.693+01:00"Either" and "neither" are pro..."Either" and "neither" are pronounced both ways in the US, sometimes by the same person. For whatever reason, I've always pronounced them as "eether" when they're at the end of a sentence and as "eyether" when they're anywhere else in the sentence. "I didn't know that, eether. Nyether he nor she said . . ." I'm sure there's no rule about it--I certainly don't remember learning one--but that's how I've always done it, and no one has ever batted an eye. I can't even tell you how my family members pronounce those words; truly, either (eyether? eether?) pronunciation goes, at least where I live (US South).Kitty Onoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-62468794725623187952011-04-02T10:49:33.174+01:002011-04-02T10:49:33.174+01:00I'm an editor on a British trade publication a...I'm an editor on a British trade publication and I'm sure the only times I've seen "oftentimes" have been in submissions from American writers.Robert Bhttp://iamrobertbain.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-2758732107009328132011-04-02T00:20:02.974+01:002011-04-02T00:20:02.974+01:00I swing both ways in some categories, depending on...I swing both ways in some categories, depending on the context. When talking about "my" soccer, er, football teams (soccer being of course a perfectly English word coined in England by an Englishman, but never mind), I'll use "match" or "game", "standings" or "table", "schedule" or "fixture" and so on depending on whether I'm talking about my Seattle Sounders or my first love Tottenham Hotspur. Some words, like the British "pitch", just seem plain better than the American "field", as does the UK (and everywhere else) tradition of giving results as Wins-Draws-Losses rather than Wins-Losses-Draws, which drives me crazy.<br /><br />The only one that really gets my goat is "bloody" -- coming out of an American mouth it makes me want to literally bloody it.Fnarfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15022243603033471232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-14772033810391777232011-04-01T15:58:40.524+01:002011-04-01T15:58:40.524+01:00@Picky:
Interestingly it is only in the 20th c...@Picky:<br /> <i>Interestingly it is only in the 20th century that the British plumped wholesale for "grey". Before that "gray" was a very common BrE spelling.</i><br /><br />That's true of a whole lot of BrE preferences, for instance "tire"/"tyre" (the things that go on your car) and "-ize"/"-ise" (in words like "organi{z|s}e".vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-74526999327992646102011-04-01T14:10:37.050+01:002011-04-01T14:10:37.050+01:00@Andy JS: I was always taught that it was correct ...@Andy JS: I was always taught that it was correct to say "eye-ther" before words that start with a vowel sound and "ee-ther" before words that start with a consonant sound. Same goes for "neither".Kellinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-36883563047374624482011-04-01T05:31:07.836+01:002011-04-01T05:31:07.836+01:00On Britishism/Briticism, see Fowler, A Dictionary ...On Britishism/Briticism, see Fowler, <i>A Dictionary of Modern English Usage</i> (1926). He prefers "Britishism", arguing that that "Briticism" is malformed, since there is no separate adjective "Britic" (whereas "Scotic" and "Anglic" do exist).Stephenhttp://mypresentandthoughts.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-26203092710359270932011-03-31T16:14:09.201+01:002011-03-31T16:14:09.201+01:00Interestingly it is only in the 20th century that ...Interestingly it is only in the 20th century that the British plumped wholesale for "grey". Before that "gray" was a very common BrE spelling.Pickynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-34103283403110103462011-03-29T17:14:50.162+01:002011-03-29T17:14:50.162+01:00I wonder how he defends 'widely accepted'....I wonder how he defends 'widely accepted'. I am from California, have said 'either' and 'often' with the less common pronunciation pattern and my friends all think that I am weird. And I have to remember when teaching to give the alternate/preferred pronunciation for Americans. Sigh.Lois Thorpehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10957285495286484500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-70730129076577944412011-03-27T23:23:21.175+01:002011-03-27T23:23:21.175+01:00Biochemist: Spot on for oftentimes, which the OED ...Biochemist: Spot on for <i>oftentimes</i>, which the OED marks as "now chiefly North American; otherwise archaic or literary." But they have no such mark for <i>lonesome</i>, which is first recorded in 1647, comfortably before the AmE-BrE split, and its etymology is plain English: <i>lone + -some</i>.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-52480620152329654202011-03-26T21:06:41.224+00:002011-03-26T21:06:41.224+00:00I'd agree that "written work by students&...I'd agree that "written work by students" is a pretty poor corpus for judging general language use. (Or even usage.) Students often strive to seem wittier or more sophisticated than they are, or both, and often fail.<br /><br />I'm startled to find (in the discussion on "cheerio") a Jeeves story quoted as evidence of "the word changing its part of speech". Wodehouse is hardly the author to invoke in a grammatical argument.<br /><br />I'm hoping Mr Yagoda is indulging in a particularly long-drawn-out and elaborate joke.Robbienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-10260069594539194552011-03-24T17:09:57.765+00:002011-03-24T17:09:57.765+00:00I need to respond to these last few comments about...I need to respond to these last few comments about past tenses! <br />I don't believe that the 't' endings are 'the British version' - they are alternatives. Yes, 'I have dreamed a dream' was said, rather poetically, by an American, and 'I dreamt I dwelled in Marble Halls' was a British song in the 19th C, but we can use both (or either!) in speech, depending on euphony and position in the sentence. <br />Off-en and off-ten are similarly alternatives in BrE speech:'Do you come here off-en?' 'I off-ten drop in after work'. Being British, we also have a class element - not so widespread nowadays - where the first syllable is pronounced 'orf-' by toffs and royalty.<br /><br />This thread was started by comments on written work by students, and I entirely agree that 'oftentimes' sounds American or perhaps poetic, archaic, jocular, and so on. I wonder if some of these odd words or phrases are not actually archaic BrE, but may have entered AmE from German or other European languages in the past 4-500 years? 'Lonesome' springs to mind. BrE exposure to all but the most obvious German words is lost in the mists of time...biochemistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-66254702023556143502011-03-24T14:52:23.205+00:002011-03-24T14:52:23.205+00:00For me, 'leaped' and 'leapt' have ...For me, 'leaped' and 'leapt' have different vowel sounds. 'Leaped' is perfectly good AmE. Note that the final consonant sounds like 't'.<br /><br />Americans do write and say 'dealt'. I don't believe anyone uses 'dealed'.<br /><br />I am familiar with the BrE 'smelt', but would not use it myself (except in the childish saying 'He who smelt it dealt it', where it is indispensible). <br /><br />I believe that 'gray' and 'grey' are interchangeable on both sides of the Atlantic, except for a few people who wish they weren't.Øhttp://voidplay.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-77087921469021968222011-03-24T03:44:38.989+00:002011-03-24T03:44:38.989+00:00(NYC) To be honest, the AmE spelling of past tense...(NYC) To be honest, the AmE spelling of past tense verbs with the "ed" ending has always confused me, especially because many of them I say with a final "t" sound. Examples are "burned" and "smelled," which to me are most naturally said with a "t" sound at the end. That said, I woundn't start using the BrE spelling of these verbs instead of the AmE spelling.<br /><br />Generally, I don't think it's anyone's intention to sound British. Sometimes I mix up "gray" and "grey," but that's only because I can never remember which one is preferred in AmE. And it doesn't help that an Art teacher I once had in high school used both to distinguish between various shades of gray. Yeah, she had problems...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-66707331030559504312011-03-23T03:15:19.480+00:002011-03-23T03:15:19.480+00:00I certainly say 'Yankee game' and 'Sox...I certainly say 'Yankee game' and 'Sox game'. I wonder, though, if the fact that because so many team names are plural that the plural form simply carries over to the adjectival form, with no mental parsing going on at all.<br /><br />Having started school in New England, a lot of so-called 'Britishisms' strike me as perfectly normal. I do find myself halting, though, when I come across certain British past tenses--dwelt, dreamt, etc.--that are distinctly different than the AmE use of the regular verb forms.<br /><br />Grey/Gray... I don't know which is 'correct', but as I sincerely doubt anyone is getting all confused when I use one or the other, I don't worry about it.John Burgesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11979918255430186425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-72751803909231695802011-03-23T00:01:22.312+00:002011-03-23T00:01:22.312+00:00No one ever says "Cub game" or "Bra...No one ever says "Cub game" or "Brave game" or "Giant game" or "Cardinal game" or ... You need the "s".<br /><br />For some reason this does not apply to the Yankees. People really do say "Yankee game".Øhttp://voidplay.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.com