tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post7090259705091592292..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: adverb placementlynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-76363952565907913442014-03-27T02:19:34.011+00:002014-03-27T02:19:34.011+00:00Sorry the table looks so muddled in my last postin...Sorry the table looks so muddled in my last posting, and only a little better in my (deleted) correction.. This will, I hope, look a bit better<br /><br />.......POST-AUXILIARY <br />........(PREFERRED)<br />....................................PRE-AUXILIARY <br />.....................................(LESS FAVOURED)<br />....i.a. It was <i>certainly</i> very good<br />....................................b. It <i>certainly</i> was very good.<br />...ii.a. They are <i>always</i> cheerful<br />....................................b. They <i>always</i> are cheerful.<br />iii a. He is <i>already</i> in hospital<br />....................................b. He <i>already</i> is in hospital.<br /><br />It's better still if you click as if you want to add a post.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-15647036217683409922014-03-26T12:38:19.101+00:002014-03-26T12:38:19.101+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-81849786511255595132014-03-26T00:58:21.833+00:002014-03-26T00:58:21.833+00:00The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language has ...The <b>Cambridge Grammar of the English Language</b> has a subsection headed <b>Central position in auxiliary constructions</b>. Pertinent to this thread is the table:<br /><br />..........POST-AUXILIARY (PREFERRED).................PRE-AUXILIARY (LESS FAVOURED)<br />....i.a. It was <i>certainly</i> very good.......b. It <i>certainly</i> was very good.<br />...ii.a. They are <i>always</i> cheerful........b. They <i>always</i> are cheerful.<br />iii a. He is <i>already</i> in hospital............b. He <i>already</i> is in hospital.<br /><br />They observe (presumably based on corpus analysis) that there is less disfavour for b-type combinations with 'modal' adverbs like <i>certainly is</i> and more disfavour for b-type combinations with frequency adverbs like <i>always is</i>. For b-type combinations with 'aspectual' adverbs such as <i>already is</i> there is less disfavour among AmE speakers than among BrE speakers.<br /><br />As Iain observes, the disfavour for b-type combinations is lessened when the auxiliary is stressed. <br /><br /><i>It certainly WAS↘ very good.<br />They always ARE↘ cheerful.<br />He already IS↘ in hospital.</i><br /><br />And the pre-auxiliary position is particularly favoured when the rest of the clause is elided:<br /><br /><i>It certainly WAS↘<br />They always ARE↘<br />He already IS↘</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90124430607964334122014-03-24T02:04:00.136+00:002014-03-24T02:04:00.136+00:00Lynne
Yes, one can absolutely say that in Americ...Lynne<br /><br /><i> Yes, one can absolutely say that in American.</i><br /><br />Hmm. Maybe there is really/really is a difference after all. I would prefer to say:<br /><br /><i> Yes, one absolutely can say that in American</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-26596177884559600622014-03-24T01:58:06.863+00:002014-03-24T01:58:06.863+00:00Iain
Is it really possible to say 'she usual...Iain<br /><br /><i> Is it really possible to say 'she usually is at the office before 9' in America? </i><br /> <br />It's really possible to say it in my version of British English. It really is possible. Really, it's possible. It's possible, really.<br /><br />I agree with you in finding it odd, but not so very odd. The real problem is that there are too many adverbials. This doesn't matter in sentences like<br /><br /><i>That usually is the case<br />He usually is late<br />The yoghourt usually is in the fridge</i><br /> <br />These, for me, are stylistic variants of <br /><br /><i>That is usually the case<br />He is usually late<br />The yoghourt is usually in the fridge</i><br /><br />Either way, we're talking about<br /><br /><i> usually the case<br />usually late<br />usually in the fridge</i><br /><br />But with you example, it's not sure whether we're talking about <i>usually in her office</i> or <i>usually before nine</i>.<br /><br />I'd be reasonable happy with: <br /><br /><i>Before nine she usually is in her office</i>.<br /><br />And I'd be entirely happy with:<br /><br /><i>— I'd like to see Sandra early tomorrow morning. Where can I find her at, say, 8.45?<br />— She usually is in her office before nine.</i><br /><br />This (for me) is OK, because <i>before nine</i> isn't NEW INFORMATION.<br /><br />Strictly, the two constructions don't have identical meaning. Theoretically, they mean either<br /> <br />1. It is usually true that X<br />or<br />2. X is usually true.<br /><br />In many cases this amounts to the same thing, but <a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Comprehensive-Grammar-English-Language-General/dp/0582517346/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1395625476&sr=8-1&keywords=comprehensive+grammar+English+language" rel="nofollow"> the big Quirk grammar</a> makes this interesting distinction:<br /><br />She really delighted her audience.<br />She completely delighted here audience<br /><br />She had really delighted her audience.<br />She had completely delighted her audience.<br /><br />She really had delighted her audience.<br />* She completely had delighted her audience. (*='not grammatically acceptable.')<br /><br />If you want BE in the pair<br /><br />She really is delighting her audience.<br />*She completely is delighting her audience.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-92221216169406933142014-03-23T21:25:47.425+00:002014-03-23T21:25:47.425+00:00Yes, one can absolutely say that in American.Yes, one can absolutely say that in American.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-76128847169347429312014-03-23T19:59:05.333+00:002014-03-23T19:59:05.333+00:00In all my five teaching English as a foreign langu...In all my five teaching English as a foreign language, I've always taught my students that adverbs of frequency (always, sometimes, never, etc.) must go after the verb 'be' and before all other verbs. So if one of them said to me 'she usually is...', I would correct them. Is it really possible to say 'she usually is at the office before 9' in America? Of course, I can understand if you were putting the emphasis on the word 'is' to refute a statement to the contrary, but in most cases, I have to say this sounds very strange to me. Ian Mac Eochagáinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08807587737403861042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-72679366483510985632009-08-13T10:04:06.802+01:002009-08-13T10:04:06.802+01:00On the BBC radio news this morning:'The Intern...On the BBC radio news this morning:'The International Olympic Comittee will today announce which new sports will enter the Games in 2012'. Somehow that sounds more formal and official than the other possibilities<br />- The IOC will announce today<br />- Today, the IOC will announce<br /><br />I am assuming that 'today' here is an adverbial, analogous to 'at the time'.biochemistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-38521338817821812822009-07-22T12:24:54.298+01:002009-07-22T12:24:54.298+01:00John, thank you for this excellent and informative...John, thank you for this excellent and informative analysis of the place of the comma – and I love your word, commatose! (Spellchecker is not so keen…) The parenthetical use of commas implies that the sentence could stand alone without the insert, as indeed it can here: I wanted to go, but I decided to stay at home.<br /><br />In our more hurried age, even – or perhaps especially – when reading, it seems a good strategy to front-load the sentence so that the ‘meat’ is delivered first and the reader/listener can decide whether to pay attention to the remainder. Thus, we have two other options depending on whether the health or the desire to attend is the more important message: <br /><br />I wanted to go – decided to stay home – because of precarious health<br /><br />Precarious health – stayed home – although I wanted to go<br /><br />And I think we would only need a comma after the second part in each case.<br /><br />I haven’t read the Aubrey-Maturin novels (Paul O’Brian), but have you noticed that Alan Bennett never seems to use anything stronger than a comma?biochemistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-25279214890916433302009-07-17T06:13:01.129+01:002009-07-17T06:13:01.129+01:00The trouble with the rather commatose sentence I w...The trouble with the rather commatose sentence <i>I wanted to go, but, in light of my precarious health, I decided to stay home</i> is that it's a hybrid of two different punctuation strategies, <i>rhetorical</i> and <i>structural</i>.<br /><br />In the older rhetorical style, we'd have <i>I wanted to go, but in light of my precarious health[,] I decided to stay home.</i> Here the commas represent breath-pauses, and whether you insert the second one depends on whether you (as author) would naturally take a breath there. Some would, some would not.<br /><br />In the more modern structural style, commas are used to indicate the structure of the sentence. On this viewpoint, the phrase <i>in light of my precarious health</i> is parenthetical in nature, and so is set off from the rest of the sentence, <i>I wanted to go but I decided to stay home</i>, using paired commas. The result is <i>I wanted to go but, in light of my precarious health, I decided to stay home</i>, with commas that have nothing to do with breath pauses at all.<br /><br />The difference between the modern American and modern British styles is primarily that the latter use as little structural punctuation as is compatible with intelligibility, whereas Americans methodically insert structural commas whether they are needed for disambiguation or not. And of course there is always some leakage from the older style, including some whole works (the Aubrey-Maturin novels) written in exclusively rhetorical style.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-83241628606143149882009-07-15T12:30:35.713+01:002009-07-15T12:30:35.713+01:00@Zach: In BrE I would write it exactly the same wa...@Zach: In BrE I would write it exactly the same way you have and I am quite fond of my sub-subordinate clauses.<br /><br />I'd have to concur with what Anonymous is saying there too. It's kind of like that famous phrase "All that glitters is not gold" which always used to [used to always?] confuse me as a child until I worked out that what it actually means is 'Not all that glitters is gold.'<br /><br />Because obviously gold is renowned for its sparkliness, so sometimes what glitters <i>is</i> gold.<br /><br />I may have tangentified somewhat there...Solonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-5001287532147376802009-07-13T19:47:33.281+01:002009-07-13T19:47:33.281+01:00Whoa! (as we say)
Zach is suggesting the comma b...Whoa! (as we say) <br /><br />Zach is suggesting the comma business is a speech difference as well as a written difference.<br /><br />Can that be true?Pickynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-72312170763077092592009-07-11T21:42:20.835+01:002009-07-11T21:42:20.835+01:00Thanks for the info, Sandra.Thanks for the info, Sandra.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-55079675356039916002009-07-11T18:43:45.654+01:002009-07-11T18:43:45.654+01:00Hey Lynneguist, I like your blog, which I find fun...Hey Lynneguist, I like your blog, which I find funny and really interesting.<br />Now, about your myGengo comment "it looks like an interesting concept", I'll try not to shout.<br />Have you seen the rates they offer? $0.05 per word, it means that a translator who went to university (probably has got a master's degree) and worked full time for them could hope to earn an average of 1100 $ a month, without holidays or sick pay, of course.<br />An interesting concept, indeed!<br />Anyway, I will continue to read your posts and enjoy them, I'm sure.<br />A slightly pissed off translatorUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14723613656610687926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9246626694102141662009-07-10T15:15:34.206+01:002009-07-10T15:15:34.206+01:00I've just come across the following in Khaled ...I've just come across the following in Khaled Hosseini's <i>The kite runner,</i> (written in AmE) - "Do you have to always be the hero?". To me, it would be natural to say "Do you always have to...?"<br /><br />Kate (UK)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-2927788963168159292009-07-09T16:37:50.659+01:002009-07-09T16:37:50.659+01:00Lindenwood I find the sentence you've written ...Lindenwood I find the sentence you've written extremely hard to read with all the commas (I'm Australian). I had to read it 3 or 4 times before I understood what it was saying.<br /><br />If I was to write it I would only include the first comma like this;<br /><i> I wanted to go, but in light of my precarious health I decided to stay at home </i><br /><br />I have a feeling those who speak predominantly British English and those that speak American English pause at different times in the sentences which changes the placement of commas and the grammar.Zachnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-24658785156036224162009-07-08T18:36:06.466+01:002009-07-08T18:36:06.466+01:00"But I do want to note that when these adverb..."But I do want to note that when these adverbials occur sentence-initially, they are much more likely to be followed by a comma in AmE than in BrE."<br /><br />For what it's worth, our style guide, which mainly follows British usage, but is somewhat comma-heavy, insists on a comma in these instances.Ginger Yellowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06103410278129312943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-19150726168847009032009-07-08T14:27:53.407+01:002009-07-08T14:27:53.407+01:00My initial reaction regarding the difference in wo...My initial reaction regarding the difference in word order in these phrases (has certainly, certainly has, has probably, probably has) is that it's a question of emphasis. <br /><br />"He has <b>probably</b> done it" implies I'm not sure if he's done it or not. <br /><br />"He probably <b>has</b> done it" also carries doubt, but also the implication that I am taking to someone who thinks that he has probably NOT done it.Almost Americanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17865905831387595915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-86738637878591843642009-07-08T11:19:41.533+01:002009-07-08T11:19:41.533+01:00When I read things in British English, I certainly...When I read things in British English, I certainly have to back-up and re-read if a comma is missing. :)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14516340353786390560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-45136682625635867512009-07-08T05:51:10.602+01:002009-07-08T05:51:10.602+01:00I am another who needs to join Comma-Dependents An...I am another who needs to join Comma-Dependents Anonymous. It would not be unusual for me to write a sentence like <i>"I wanted to go, but, in light of my precarious health, I decided to stay home."</i><br /><br />I guess I could have left the first comma out, but the other two are necessary, right?<br /><br />In your last example, I would genenrally use "has certainly" but, as a response to a comment such as <i>I think he might have left his mark...</i> I would tend to use "certainly has" with emphasis on the <i>has</i>. Does that make any sense?Mrs Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05655632448285928588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-75687620984910358172009-07-08T03:02:56.368+01:002009-07-08T03:02:56.368+01:00Haha, the part in ALL CAPS about the comma after t...Haha, the part in ALL CAPS about the comma after the phrase is true. Well, it's true for me, an American, at least. At the end of the post, you showed the statistics for placement of the adverb. I think in more informal settings, both Brits and Americans will most likely use the first choice in the form of a contraction with the subject and the word "has", i.e. "he's certainly" or "he's probably". I bet if that study had included the " 's", it would skew the data considerably. What do you think?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04927080180653283911noreply@blogger.com