tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post8264781798494329904..comments2024-03-28T07:47:45.855+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: sadly (and a bit on hopefully)lynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger66125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-56126735170874415872021-09-18T21:07:03.213+01:002021-09-18T21:07:03.213+01:00Yes, it is to save space. For the same reason, US ...Yes, it is to save space. For the same reason, US newspapers have "he died January 14" instead of "he died on January 14" and the New York Times Style Guide even abjures the use of the serial or Oxford comma to save space and printing ink. (The serial comma is often alluded to as a speciality of American English, but it is just another style choice, just like "-ize" or "-ise".Ken Davieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03789978578410245444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-69252907662386040602021-09-18T21:04:34.214+01:002021-09-18T21:04:34.214+01:00You will hear and see it in every COVID-19 governm...You will hear and see it in every COVID-19 government press conference in any of the four countries of the United Kingdom. I have not heard them once announce the number of deaths without the use of the word "sadly" before "died". There are so many other adverbs one could use ("needlessly", "tragically", "painfully") but perhaps "sadly" is oddly neutral, not implying any responsibility or undue emotion.Ken Davieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03789978578410245444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-21479498224866770992021-09-18T20:57:58.501+01:002021-09-18T20:57:58.501+01:00Or, in the US, just "passed" (sometimes ...Or, in the US, just "passed" (sometimes spelled "past" but let's not get into that). You feel like asking, did he or she pass by, pass on, pass wind, pass out, or pass the ball? Ken Davieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03789978578410245444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9090324225740603462020-12-21T15:27:27.848+00:002020-12-21T15:27:27.848+00:00Drats, I just wrote a post, and because I'd in...Drats, I just wrote a post, and because I'd inserted a link I pressed "Preview" and the whole thing vanished! Let's try again, and hope I get the link right. I have just read an article on <a href="https://londonist.com/london/art-and-photography/london-s-most-unusual-windows" rel="nofollow">Londonist</a> which reminded me of this post, as in the blurb about a stained-glass window depiction of a clown, they wrote: "The basement of the church even used to house a clown museum, before it sadly closed owing to building safety concerns."Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-61791691014210128652020-08-20T09:44:29.960+01:002020-08-20T09:44:29.960+01:00I come from Indian English where 'sadly' t...I come from Indian English where 'sadly' tends to be used at the beginning of a sentence, suffixed with a comma, and unambiguously interpreted as a comment on what follows, as in "sadly, the younger generation doesn't know the meaning of integrity" or "sadly, he died before finishing his final work." Even if someone were to say "he sadly passed away...," etc., 'sadly' would most often be used synonymous with 'unfortunately'in such usage, and rarely comes across as either inappropriately weak or gratuitous. "Sad demise" is another style used here, as in "the nation mourns his sad demise."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-45885078143884695492020-05-11T22:49:36.062+01:002020-05-11T22:49:36.062+01:00So pleased to come across this blog about a phrase...So pleased to come across this blog about a phrase which winds me up with being overused, and badly. I wince every time I'm told that 'X sadly died' wondering why X couldn't die happily like everyone else presumably does!Drew_Machttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01002057750081892438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-7957170996174630882020-03-04T10:03:59.819+00:002020-03-04T10:03:59.819+00:00Hi Lynne, This is only tangential to this post, bu...Hi Lynne, This is only tangential to this post, but I wanted to ask -- <br />There is currently a debate raging among the family members of a friend of mine who's recently died about whether "passed away" is AmE. Do you know?southernmysthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00329322423283247411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-26454283337813163462019-11-25T17:56:22.485+00:002019-11-25T17:56:22.485+00:00"Sadly" is a sort of ellipsis, that mean..."Sadly" is a sort of ellipsis, that means "It is saddening that," just as "hopefully" is an ellipsis of "It is to be hoped that."<br /><br />But the problem is that "sadly" being the adverb of choice when someone hath shuffled off the mortal coil is simply laziness. We are supposed to feel the John Donne "everyone's death diminishes me" sentiment. It is as though the "sadly" addition is either a virtue signal ("I am sad that...", whether you actually are or are not, feeling that you should say that merely for politeness's sake), or it is a moral scolding ("YOU should feel sad, even though you may not actually feel that way.").Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-84984672746887408282019-08-21T17:48:12.450+01:002019-08-21T17:48:12.450+01:00Am I the only one here who reads "He sadly di...Am I the only one here who reads "He sadly died..." as meaning, "He died in a sad manner..."? I did not see this interpretation anywhere above, perhaps I missed it. To me, it is the most natural reading. <br /><br />A sad manner of death could mean many things, of course. Painful, unfortunate, tragic, unexpected or some other manner could be considered sad by the writer. I would never have interpreted the phrase as having a principal meaning that the dead person was sad. Joyce Meltonhttp://invisiblegalleries.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-41047640176568639682019-07-27T20:30:48.796+01:002019-07-27T20:30:48.796+01:00I've lived in Britain most of my 65 years and ...I've lived in Britain most of my 65 years and I agree with you, I think "he sadly died" is an abomination unless the writer actually means "he died sadly" in which case that's what the writer should have written. "Sadly, he died" is all right in context but only when the context allows that comma.<br /><br />Just don't get me started on "passed away". When I die, as I surely will because it's the one certain thing in anybody's life, I intend to die. I won't be going anywhere, I'll be so much decaying organic matter and I have no problem with that.<br />enitharmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17829757748223670291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-2231412756547732842019-07-14T13:57:09.381+01:002019-07-14T13:57:09.381+01:00'regretfully, X died'
So X died full of r...'regretfully, X died'<br /><br />So X died full of regret?Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-58166003848581513272019-07-14T09:19:12.256+01:002019-07-14T09:19:12.256+01:00Late to the party I know, but this is really ridic...Late to the party I know, but this is really ridiculous.'X sadly died' doesn't mean 'I am sad about X dying', it's more like 'regretfully, X died'. No one reads it like 'dear readers, a great tragedy has befallen us and I am overcome with grief...it is with the heaviest of hearts that I must inform you of the passing of our beloved friend, X'. Honestly it reads very neutrally. It's sombre and formal, certainly not loaded with emotion in any way. And as others have already made clear, in the British Englishes it is completely unambiguous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-16965479425192016522019-06-28T13:39:29.006+01:002019-06-28T13:39:29.006+01:00Boy, is that passage full of cliches (much like Ha...Boy, is that passage full of cliches (much like <i>Hamlet</i>). :-)<br /><br />I think though that Bunyan meant <i>passed over</i> to be understood as <i>passed over the river</i>, part of the literal sense.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-45556470581683001942019-05-06T20:05:12.635+01:002019-05-06T20:05:12.635+01:00According to the British Newspaper Archive, "...According to the British Newspaper Archive, "sadly died" steadily become more popular from the early 1970s to the mid-1990s, before peaking in 2005. Here is a <a href="https://i.imgur.com/CxiWoaG.png" rel="nofollow">little graph to demonstrate this</a>.vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9403294643390517952019-04-02T19:44:37.737+01:002019-04-02T19:44:37.737+01:00I just put your book on my Amazon wish list. I just put your book on my Amazon wish list. Roger Owen Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05298172138307632062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-78373647448240650862019-03-30T21:15:11.429+00:002019-03-30T21:15:11.429+00:00Revisiting the thread to read a new post, I was su...Revisiting the thread to read a new post, I was suddenly reminded of the phrase<br /><br /><i>sadly lacking in...</i><br /><br />The person so-described is seldom if ever <b>sad</b>. The person doing the describing does pretend to be.<br /><br />Writing this reminds me of another phrase<br /><br /><i>sadly mistaken</i><br /><br />as in<br /><br /><i>If that's what you think, you're...</i><br />or <br /><i>They turned out to be...</i><br /><br />On the obituarial theme we speak of someone as<br /><br /><i>sadly missed</i>.<br /><br />Nedless to say, it isn't the deceased who is sad.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-89312360618501443412019-03-30T17:31:26.578+00:002019-03-30T17:31:26.578+00:00In an earlier post, various people mentioned endin...In an earlier post, various people mentioned ending an e-mail wth “thanks in advance”. I have used this format, but I am just as likely to say “hopefully, you will be able to help wth ...”. Sadly, their is no guarantee that either approach will workShy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-80581732640855791502019-03-10T01:21:11.552+00:002019-03-10T01:21:11.552+00:00The two-word verb must surely have been popularise...The two-word verb must surely have been popularised by <b>Pilgrim's Progress</b>.<br /><br /><i>After this it was noised abroad that Mr. Valiant-for-truth was taken with a summons by the same post as the other, and had this for a token that the summons was true, "That his pitcher was broken at the fountain." When he understood it, he called for his friends, and told them of it. Then said he, I am going to my Father’s; and though with great difficulty I have got hither, yet now I do not repent me of all the trouble I have been at to arrive where I am. My sword I give to him that shall succeed me in my pilgrimage, and my courage and skill to him that can get it. My marks and scars I carry with me, to be a witness for me that I have fought His battles who will now be my rewarder. When the day that he must go hence was come, many accompanied him to the river-side, into which as he went, he said, "Death, where is thy sting?" And as he went down deeper, he said, "Grave, where is thy victory?"<br />So he passed over, and all the trumpets sounded for him on the other side.</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-33152133715556893412019-03-08T14:40:22.153+00:002019-03-08T14:40:22.153+00:00I think I first heard it ('passed over') i...I think I first heard it ('passed over') in an episode of 'Morse' (UK TV series) - so this would be several years ago. Morse made a scathing remark about the euphemism. But I heard somebody say it on BBC radio just a few days ago.biochemisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02583985909434048932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-13688371860019145832019-03-07T18:00:57.844+00:002019-03-07T18:00:57.844+00:00In the US, the full phrase "passed over to th...In the US, the full phrase "passed over to the other side" is sometimes used for death, but it's not widely used in just the shortened form "passed over." I think "passed over" just by itself would probably be understood as not getting a job promotion or something similar. In fact, when I googled "passed over," it autofilled to "passed over for promotion."Joel T. Luberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01425059756986844099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-26756366833051284952019-03-03T04:16:13.691+00:002019-03-03T04:16:13.691+00:00I'm in radical agreement with both David and R...I'm in radical agreement with both David and Rosie. Although I'm not very familiar with the ins and outs of UK education politics, we've had very similar fights in the US. To my mind, the core problem is that it's far easier to teach rules than it is to teach writing. And that's especially true for the legions of teachers who arrive in our classrooms ill-prepared and badly supported. Christian Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17561529462675001889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-74021419268839612082019-02-26T20:10:35.967+00:002019-02-26T20:10:35.967+00:00I am also someone who "unfortunately" us...I am also someone who "unfortunately" uses "hopefully" often. I think that it may be a learned habit of speaking that I learned from my family members. We know that children soak up and learn things, behaviors and speech from their surroundings. So who thinks that this way of speaking is something that we learned out of habit?Crystal Hernandeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-41570059329785513892019-02-25T18:23:11.364+00:002019-02-25T18:23:11.364+00:00JB, this British speaker does discern an ambiguity...JB, this British speaker <b>does</b> discern an ambiguity.<br /><br />The reason I immediately interpret it to mean 'It's sad that he died' is that the other interpretation is such an unlikely proposition. The interpretation 'He was sad when he died' becomes more plausible if you supplement the bare adverb. For example<br /><i> He silently, sadly died </i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-92137039483567117812019-02-25T18:07:37.848+00:002019-02-25T18:07:37.848+00:00In my book, Rosie, the view
that successful com...In my book, Rosie, the view <br /><br /><i>that successful communication is the mark of 'good writing' </i><br /> <br />is true and helpful.<br /><br />The view<br /><br /><i> that rules of correctness are the one route to good writing</i><br /><br />is misguided and at best unhelpful.<br /><br />Delete <i>the one</i> and insert a note of uncertainty, and I might see some point. For example:<br /><br /><i>Some rules of correctness may sometimes be a route to good writing</i><br /><br />As to your final question<br /><br /><i>Anyway, who not only teaches rules, but also teaches that that those rules are the one route to good writing -- as if there were not other routes as well?</i><br /><br />the answer is: <b>teachers who (willingly or unwillingly) follow the dogmatic assertions of the testing regime.</b><br /><br />Consider <br /><br /><a href="" rel="nofollow">this example from David Crystal's blog</a><br /><br />In the sort of test which teachers are expected to respect, one question<br /><br /> "...asks children to complete the sentence 'The sun shone ________ in the sky.' and the mark scheme reads 'Accept any appropriate adverb, e.g. brightly, beautifully."<br /><br />Teachers found that children who wrote<br /><br /><i>The sun shone bright in the sky.</i><br />or <br /><i>The sun shone dutifully in the sky.</i><br /><br /><br /> were penalised and had a mark deducted.<br /><br />As Michael Rosen commented, the notion that <i>grammar, punctuation and spelling have 'right and wrong answers'</i> was based on a wilful misreading by the Education Secretary Michael Gove of a consultative report. I agree with Rosen that this was <i>nothing more nor less than prejudice dressed up as argument.</i><br /><br />Another example of prejudice masquerading as information is the use of <i>hopefully</i> which Andrew apologised for.<br /><br />The grammar-bigot Gove extended this to to telling his civil servants not to use <i>However,</i>at the beginning of a sentence. Fortunately, his powers did not extend to deducting marks or making people feel guilty.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-49965857962063558412019-02-25T12:17:16.146+00:002019-02-25T12:17:16.146+00:00Just in case it hasn't been remarked upon in t...Just in case it hasn't been remarked upon in the comments so far, no native British speaker would discern any 'ambiguity (is it sad that he died, or was he sad when he died?)' in the phrase 'sadly died'. For the deceased to be sad at death, the word order would have to be 'died sadly'. <br />JBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04524047264489568263noreply@blogger.com