tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post8464667502806720950..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: childish pronounslynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger88125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-83527811704525180042022-02-28T13:40:45.757+00:002022-02-28T13:40:45.757+00:00Native Danish speaker here, I have to disagree (a ...Native Danish speaker here, I have to disagree (a good 11 years late, but I don't think usage has changed that much since 2010): Danish dog-owners are definitely most likely to use "he" or "she" about their dogs. I'm happy to say "it" about my own cat (I'm confident it doesn't care), but talking about someone else's pet I'd try to say "he" or "she" lest I offend.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-78855847207466881192019-05-25T12:00:08.803+01:002019-05-25T12:00:08.803+01:00BrE. Lynne, I liked your postie example. It took m...BrE. Lynne, I liked your postie example. It took me ages to work out mine. Here’s what I came up with.<br /><br />The human infant will cut its teeth at X months. This sounded fine, until I thought about after reading this post. Compare with<br /><br />The human adult will lose its ability to hear high frequencies. Actually, I could live with this, but in both cases, I would re-word to avoid the issue.Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-4928843131181596382015-03-14T06:50:12.768+00:002015-03-14T06:50:12.768+00:00I can understand a person referring to a small bab...I can understand a person referring to a small baby as "it," because it has not taken on its own unique identity yet. I confess that for the first couple of weeks of my son's life, I sometimes referred to him as "it." I can assure you it was not from lack of love or attachment. I'm not quite sure what the reason was. Maybe because he was so new to me. I'm not sure, but after a couple of weeks, it was like he had always been there , and I no longer referred to him as it.feekiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16208422523735079171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-41439896704731822822015-01-07T11:42:40.090+00:002015-01-07T11:42:40.090+00:00In New Zealand English people tend to use the word...In New Zealand English people tend to use the word "bubs" as a placeholder for either the baby's name (if unknown) or any of the pronouns. So an air hostess might say to a customer with a baby "Here's an extra belt for bubs. Just make sure bubs is sitting on your lap." I don't care for it myself (it's a word that just irks me, like "hubby"), but it's a pretty handy workaround for this issue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1232808012908149582014-08-07T21:50:48.654+01:002014-08-07T21:50:48.654+01:00Or, indeed, to the bicycle rather than to the pers...Or, indeed, to the bicycle rather than to the person riding it.Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-22934663270868974362014-08-07T14:31:31.952+01:002014-08-07T14:31:31.952+01:00Dear Mrs Smyth,
(25 January 2011)
I think you sa...Dear Mrs Smyth,<br /><br />(25 January 2011)<br /><br />I think you said what you said because you were referring to a scene (an 'it') rather than a person (a 'her' or 'him'). <br /><br />Howard, Lewes, BrE. Howard https://www.blogger.com/profile/09477228525746209630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-29940246309668949622014-04-19T16:31:35.134+01:002014-04-19T16:31:35.134+01:00In my personal grammar, the "it" of &qu...In my personal grammar, the "it" of "it's a boy" does not refer to the infant. It's a dummy pronoun, as in "it's raining".vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-50043334109328460932014-04-19T16:29:22.527+01:002014-04-19T16:29:22.527+01:00In "it's a boy!", I do not think of ...In "it's a boy!", I do not think of the word "it" as referring to the infant; rather, it's a dummy reference, like "it's raining".vphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16647609487352038948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-88491975335434485622014-04-18T17:12:11.687+01:002014-04-18T17:12:11.687+01:00Edit: I of course meant to say (Third person singu...Edit: I of course meant to say (Third person singular neuter possessive).<br /><br />I feel so embarrassed for the slip-up. =/Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02138260302522477243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-37049756895633684422014-04-18T07:29:43.937+01:002014-04-18T07:29:43.937+01:00Massachusetts-
For those who wait til the birth t...Massachusetts-<br /><br />For those who wait til the birth to find out their baby's sex, the cliche'd announcement is "<b>It's</b> a boy!"<br /><br />I don't refer to adults as it even if (first person neuter possessive) gender is unknown, but I'd like to. It'd be much cleaner than using he/she, less awkward than he/she or (s)he, and less jarring than they.<br /><br />For pets I'll often link a gender to a species. Cats are feminine and dogs are masculine. This sets up cognitive dissonance if the animal is the other sex. Especially when the owner is uptight about such things.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02138260302522477243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-30195828163737650592012-08-26T14:11:05.814+01:002012-08-26T14:11:05.814+01:00Anybody calling my little girl 'it' 32 yea...Anybody calling my little girl 'it' 32 years ago would have been on the receiving end of some choice rhetoric from me. But nobody ever did.<br /><br />Where gender is not specified I tend to use she/her. If nothing else, it annoys a certain kind of man.<br />enitharmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17829757748223670291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-82912567974669047732011-07-05T00:27:32.736+01:002011-07-05T00:27:32.736+01:00"It" of a child (n.b. not if the child h..."It" of a child (n.b. not if the child has already been referred to as a boy or girl): - it is amazing to see how prescriptive people can become, who in other circumstances would be happy to observe and record the use of words, without judging the speakers.Little Black Sambohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16699227938165106710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-69650630666236315792011-01-25T09:40:25.019+00:002011-01-25T09:40:25.019+00:00I thought of this thread this morning when my husb...I thought of this thread this morning when my husband was driving, and we were coming up behind a rubbish lorry with rather bright orange flashing lights. I saw a cyclist between us and the lorry, and heard myself saying: "There's a cyclist! I expect you know, but I think it's rather difficult to see it with that lorry." Then realised I'd referred to the poor cyclist as "it", and quickly said, "him or her!"Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-36201248938966256412011-01-25T01:00:15.689+00:002011-01-25T01:00:15.689+00:00I'm British, and it is used to refer to babies...I'm British, and it is used to refer to babies, or children where the gender is unclear. Yes, I agree, it is dehumanising.<br /><br />I am also aware that many people have a problem with how animals are also referred to as "it", even when the gender is clear. A similar issue, perhaps?Rosehttp://translatorsteacup.lingocode.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-21456002322317873402010-11-30T17:37:47.481+00:002010-11-30T17:37:47.481+00:00Most western parents have the opportunity to find ...Most western parents have the opportunity to find out the sex of their baby before it's born these days...though the gender might be another matter. :)lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-13782462454997014852010-11-30T12:06:25.383+00:002010-11-30T12:06:25.383+00:00If it's not too late to add a comment, surely ...If it's not too late to add a comment, surely a f(o)etus is 'it' in all dialects? Until it's born, it hasn't got a known gender? <br /><br />And to refer to a f(o)etus as a collective singular 'they' should really terrify the prospective parents.Drunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-19156188068000381572010-11-27T12:06:47.842+00:002010-11-27T12:06:47.842+00:00LOL! Thanks for that, I love it!LOL! Thanks for that, I love it!Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-56195677474546243642010-11-27T11:39:41.262+00:002010-11-27T11:39:41.262+00:00Lily
In recent operating systems (Leopard and Sno...Lily<br /><br />In recent operating systems (<b>Leopard</b> and <b>Snow Leopard</b>), you choose the language not in an application like <b>Pages</b> but in the <b>Language & Text</b> part of <b>System Preferences</b>.<br /><br />I think the principle's the same in <b>Tiger</b> and earlier cats, but the detail's a bit different.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-28583965592166388082010-11-27T11:13:08.285+00:002010-11-27T11:13:08.285+00:00I often accidentally say 'it's so cute...I often accidentally say 'it's so cute' about a baby, it's like they're not a real person, they're so small! <br />And if you said 'she' when it's actually a boy baby, or the other way round, the baby's parents would be so offended!<br /><br />I just wanted to say, I love America. I've been there and want to go again, and I love the tv shows, especially Friends and Modern Family. But on my macbook, Pages is really annoying me! On inspector you can choose what language you're writing in, Australian English, British English, Canadian English and... English. As if American English is the default, original English language. I am in <b>Eng</b>land where <b>English</b> came from but I can't choose to write in English, I have to <b>change</b> it to British English otherwise it will automatically correct words to American spellings! Sort it out Apple! ;)Lilynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-77863549455558166612010-11-27T11:09:43.724+00:002010-11-27T11:09:43.724+00:00Mrs Redboots
I don't know whether your intere...Mrs Redboots<br /><br />I don't know whether your interest stretches to jokey treatment by serious linguists, but you might enjoy <a href="http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003572.html" rel="nofollow">"Singular they": God said it, I believe it, that settles it.</a><br /><br />Précis: Singular <i>they</i> is commonplace in translations of the Bible — the King James Version and earlier.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-91293077492235436272010-11-27T09:40:30.948+00:002010-11-27T09:40:30.948+00:00I am always interested by the fact that people see...I am always interested by the fact that people seem to consider the impersonal "they" a recent innovation. I know for a fact we used it at school in the 1960s: "Is anybody sitting there?" "Yes, they are!" We were told, repeatedly, that the correct usage would be "Yes, she is", but it sounded odd and we persisted in saying "They are" or "No they're not" as appropriate (BrE, Hampshire, 1960s).Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-10845488860015320992010-11-27T02:13:56.700+00:002010-11-27T02:13:56.700+00:00Mrs Redboots
I am inclined to believe that in BrE...Mrs Redboots<br /><br /><i>I am inclined to believe that in BrE, at any rate, "baby" is a neuter noun and takes "it" just as "ship" is a female one and takes "she" (as do various other inanimate objects in my husband's Northern Ireland dialect).</i><br /><br />I do agree with what you say — but not with the terms you use to say it. <br /><br />It's not the <b>noun</b> <i>baby</i> that's in question — as is it is with German <i>Kind</i> or Russian <i>ребёнок</i> (rebyonok). Those nouns are neuter — English <i>baby</i> isn't. It's the individual infant that counts. You said earlier that your grandchild is always <i>he</i> — even if he's referred to with the word <i>baby</i>.<br /><br />Any seagoing vessel of a particular sort may be referred to with the word <i>ship</i>. It needs to be a ship you have some affection for to qualify as <i>she</i>.<br /><br />And it's not <b>nouns</b> in you husbands's dialect that 'take <i>she</i>' — but rather the inanimate objects themselves.<br /><br />Young women have always been female, but in Modern German and Old English the nouns <i>Mädchen</i> and <i>maiden</i> that label young women are neuter.<br /><br />It may seem nit-picking, but this is the essence of how English gender differs from gender in most neighbouring languages.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-1575180510029268032010-11-27T01:39:30.460+00:002010-11-27T01:39:30.460+00:00vp
I missed your other point about singular they ...vp<br /><br />I missed your other point about singular <i>they</i> being restricted to humans.<br /><br />I think this has to be explained as a secondary effect of politeness rules. <br /><br />For an <b>animate</b> individual of unknown sex:<br /><br />• Few of us feel an absolute need to avoid <i>it</i> for a non-human.<br /><br />• Some of us don't feel the need to avoid <i>it</i> for a human infant.<br /><br />• All of us feel the need to avoid <i>it</i> for a human post-infant.<br /><br />For those who find it acceptable, singular <i>they</i> may be used <b>when the decision has already been taken to avoid <i>it</i></b>.<br /><br />Its reference is not necessarily confined to people. Speakers whose attitude to animals precludes the use of <i>it</i> may choose to use <i>they</i> for a single animal.<br /><br />Singular <i>they</i> is not used for a single inanimate object because there is no need to avoid <i>it</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-14170270426000127272010-11-27T01:06:21.193+00:002010-11-27T01:06:21.193+00:00vp
We can use it for a non-infant human of unknow...vp<br /><br />We <b>can</b> use <i>it</i> for a non-infant human of unknown (or ignored) biological sex, but rules of politeness restrict the use to questions like <i>Who is it?</i> In other contexts we use the similarly non-gendered pronoun <i>that</i> or a non-gendered noun phrase such as <i>that person</i>.<br /><br />The only difference between British speakers like me and the generality of American speakers (together with some British speakers) is that they extend these rules of politeness to infants, and we don't.<br /><br />It's not a question of grammar. English has lost its neuter gender. And we have rejected common-gender <i>he</i> as sexist. For pragmatic cultural reasons we use <i>he</i> and <i>she</i> when we can and just struggle when the biological sex is unknown.<br /><br />• <i>It</i> is still available to some of us — but politeness restricts this to almost entirely infants.<br /><br />• <i>That</i> is sometimes usable, but often precluded by the syntax.<br /><br />• Singular <i>they</i> is not universally accepted, and so is confined to informal styles.<br /><br />So, yes I concede we do distinguish between inanimate objects and post-infant humans of indeterminate sex — but not through our grammar.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-68839231230111637522010-11-26T10:09:00.484+00:002010-11-26T10:09:00.484+00:00@ vp: I am inclined to believe that in BrE, at any...@ vp: I am inclined to believe that in BrE, at any rate, "baby" is a neuter noun and takes "it" just as "ship" is a female one and takes "she" (as do various other inanimate objects in my husband's Northern Ireland dialect). <br /><br />Certainly I would not consider it impersonal to refer to an unborn baby as "it", as, I think, most people do unless and until they find out its sex.Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.com