tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post9010202571099763721..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: the fourth of Julylynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger66125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-86736562263022902792019-07-28T15:01:57.011+01:002019-07-28T15:01:57.011+01:00BrE. Scot. Mid 60s. I would always write 1st Jan. ...BrE. Scot. Mid 60s. I would always write 1st Jan. or 4th July, as that is how I was taught, and until I started reading this blog, nobody ever told me that th/nd/rd/st are no longer used. Microsoft Word automatically superscript these markers, suggesting that I am not alone in this useage. Incidentally, I would also feel compelled to use a full stop after the abbreviated month name.<br /><br />I loathe and detest attempts to make me use the YYYYMMDD format as the beginning of a file name. For me, it is MUCH more useful if the file name reflects its contents.Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-15737226491715683112018-07-02T23:38:30.982+01:002018-07-02T23:38:30.982+01:00America Day It is found in some history books tha...<a href="https://suchibaat.com/america-day-history/" rel="nofollow"> America Day</a> It is found in some history books that Vikings were the one to touch the sands of a foreign Island which is now known as North America. the Viking ship was torn apart by a furious tide and the Norsemen somehow made to the dry land and laid their feet on the ground now called America.Mcqueen Amber https://www.blogger.com/profile/15377098401043803055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-30238091826322871042016-07-18T20:12:35.885+01:002016-07-18T20:12:35.885+01:00One thing I hear a lot on Australian TV promos is ...One thing I hear a lot on Australian TV promos is "starts July One" or "on October Seventeen". Even if I saw "July 1" or "October 17" written down, I wouldn't read it out that way. I'm not sure if this is restricted to TV or radio or if Aussies often greet each other with "G'day Bruce, you coming to my barbie on August Twelve?" I doubt they do! CaptainSiCohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18025513284180590274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-3904379683343192232016-07-11T10:12:48.012+01:002016-07-11T10:12:48.012+01:00British Run fans of a certain age will still giggl...British Run fans of a certain age will still giggle to recall The Friday Rock Show's Tommy Vance (the late) talk about the band's album 2112, as Two-double-one-two", I still wonder what he thought the number meant if it wasn't a year. But, then Yes came along years later and did 90125 or was it 90210? Hah!Dave Bradleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06584334163347398116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-11722015360339686972016-07-11T07:03:47.142+01:002016-07-11T07:03:47.142+01:00Late to the party, but...
https://postimg.org/ima...Late to the party, but...<br /><br />https://postimg.org/image/v1qcao3ch/Peter Morknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-19948244791703845322016-07-07T10:30:31.547+01:002016-07-07T10:30:31.547+01:00I had hoped that the Rev. Dodgson covered this iss...I had hoped that the Rev. Dodgson covered this issue in: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/38065/38065-h/38065-h.htm (pub. 1890)<br /><br />But sadly, the limit of his advice is: "Next, put the date in full. It is another aggravating thing, when you wish, years afterwards, to arrange a series of letters, to find them dated “Feb. 17”, “Aug. 2”, without any year to guide you as to which comes first. And never, never, dear Madam (N.B. this remark is addressed to ladies only: no man would ever do such a thing), put “Wednesday”, simply, as the date!"<br /><br />without any definition of how to put the date in full.Rachel Ganzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16512329333010333925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-74549240064227152882016-07-07T09:33:43.728+01:002016-07-07T09:33:43.728+01:00I'm seeing a reversion to two-digit years, bot...I'm seeing a reversion to two-digit years, both written and now increasingly in speech, since we're safely into the 21st century.<br /><br />Four-digit years were very much a Y2K thing.Richard Gadsdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10545595590359552775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-81471080270234647592016-07-06T22:51:45.437+01:002016-07-06T22:51:45.437+01:00Rosie, I'm not sure I see how the comma before...Rosie, I'm not sure I see how the comma before the year would make it "lose" its specificity. Whether you write "July 6, 2016" or "6 July 2016" or "July 6 2016", they all clearly identify a specific non-repeating date. I don't think anybody would be inclined to think that any of those options could refer to "the sixth day of any old July"; it's simply a punctuation convention. You write "Wed 6 Jul 2016" and I write "Wednesday[,] July 6, 2016" (I'm inconsistent with the comma after the day of the week), but both unquestionably contain the same , very clear information.<br /><br />I think the point about whether one writes July 6 vs 6 July is referring specifically to the month/day vs day/month order. Naturally, for the most exact recording, we would all include the day of the week and the year as well, but that's not generally relevant in spoken conversation. Whether you say "sixth of July" or "July sixth", it's unlikely that you would say "Next week's meeting is scheduled for Wednesday, the sixth of July, two thousand sixteen"Lauranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-91384037586519370252016-07-06T22:02:10.951+01:002016-07-06T22:02:10.951+01:00Sorry...here's the hyperlink: http://www.amyjo...Sorry...here's the hyperlink: http://www.amyjohnsoncrow.com/2015/11/18/figuring-out-ult-and-inst-in-a-date/ garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09546857562269702882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-66110626749583561462016-07-06T22:01:23.794+01:002016-07-06T22:01:23.794+01:00Inst. and Ult. were common in the States also - at...Inst. and Ult. were common in the States also - at least in obits. See these Brooklyn and Kansas City newspaper examples from 1879 & 1900garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09546857562269702882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-33204991234069414752016-07-06T16:35:27.630+01:002016-07-06T16:35:27.630+01:00I am British, and I favour forms such as 6 Jul 201...I am British, and I favour forms such as 6 Jul 2016 (or 6 Jul 16). Why? For the reasons given above by David Crosbie and others, but I have yet another reason: The month name and year number together uniquely identify a month. So it is natural to put them together when specifying a date in full. 6 Jul 2016 is not the sixth day of any old July, but specifically of July 2016. The order "month day, year" loses that.<br /><br />(Actually, that's not the whole story: the form I actually favour is e.g. Wed 6 Jul 2016. If I'm considering doing something on a future day not chosen by me, I want to know what day of the week it'll be.)rosienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9916405775334990952016-07-06T13:42:44.802+01:002016-07-06T13:42:44.802+01:00Dorothy L Sayers, best known for her Lord Peter Wi...Dorothy L Sayers, best known for her Lord Peter Wimsey stories, also created a character called Montague Egg. He appears in several short stories. He is a travelling salesman, and he writes using inst. and ult. I have never bothered to find out exactly what this meant. So that's evidence for this being standard formal British English in the 1930s.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-3818138693211898592016-07-06T13:22:16.817+01:002016-07-06T13:22:16.817+01:00Current US military date style for writing & c...Current US military date style for writing & correspondence is DD Mmm YY for short dates. dd Mmmm YYYY for long dates. YYYYMMDD might be used on some forms or official reports (e.g., spreadsheets, personnel files). I've never seen year-first dates on anything intended for a human reader. (Speaking from 12+ years of military service.)<br /><br />I have no idea when the DD Mmm became standard in the US military, only that they drilled it into us in Officer The School.Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14584693220341891825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-74244092418637844262016-07-06T01:04:12.898+01:002016-07-06T01:04:12.898+01:00There is a long discussion of September 11th on th...There is a long discussion of September 11th on the past blog post on dates that's the second thing linked-to here. lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-48954859553176379602016-07-05T21:00:18.667+01:002016-07-05T21:00:18.667+01:00@Boris - when we in the UK wish to refer to the at...@Boris - when we in the UK wish to refer to the atrocities on 11/09/01, we refer to Nine Eleven, just as you do. When we wish to refer to any other 11/09 - my younger grandson's birthday, for instance, it is the Eleventh of September....Mrs Redboots (Annabel Smyth)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11270027663691257254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-27268955520923898592016-07-05T20:51:02.195+01:002016-07-05T20:51:02.195+01:00I'm not sure how it is that nobody mentioned 9...I'm not sure how it is that nobody mentioned 9/11 yet. First, when it's written as above, it is often actually pronounced "Nine - Eleven" (I've come to terms with it, though I still don't like it). The other name for the day is "September Eleventh", though "September the Eleventh" is reasonably common. And George W. Bush, who was president at the time (almost?) always used the article. For some reason, unlike with the 4th of July, whose various forms are all ways we can pronounce any date, "Nine - Eleven" can only describe the anniversary of the terrorist attacks, while "the eleventh of September" cannot be used for this purpose, only for some random 11th of September.<br /><br />This is all from the US perspective, of course. I have no idea how they talk about 9/11 in the UK.Boris Zakharinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16560756640621720539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-59364873931924733512016-07-05T19:03:57.654+01:002016-07-05T19:03:57.654+01:00Steve Dunham
Like you I wasn't taught to writ...Steve Dunham<br /><br />Like you I wasn't taught to write <i>4 July 2016</i> — In fact I'm not sure I remember what I was taught at school — but it's the format I've eventually settled on for <b>writing</b> (not saying) the date <b>in isolation </b> (I may write something different in a prose sentence.)<br /><br />We're not alone. The British Army settled on this format for this purpose last century. Biochemist's genealogy crowd insist on it — with the slight modification of leading 0. Mrs Redboots arrived here by dropping the <b>th/st/nd/rd</b>, only to find that it had grown to be <i>'the normal way now'</i>. Lynne joined us as a sort of pretence at being European, and ended up <b>being</b> European geographically. And my textbook advises foreigners to use this format <i>'and then everyone will know what you mean'</i>.<br /><br />Mrs Redboots and Lynne admit to a little artificiality at first, but that's not the point. What matters is that they both stuck with the formula.<br /><br />The format has attracted all of us because it's <i>good</i>. The merits are<br />• The <b> month </b>is distinct and clear because it's <b>spelled out in letters</b>.<br />....(This advantage was shared by the obsolete <i>inst., ult., prox.,</i>, but these were, quite literally, in a foreign language, nay a dead language. And abbreviating the Latin words didn't help, either.)<br />• The numerical parts, the <b>day</b> and <b>year</b>, are distinct and clear because they're <b> separated by an intervening word</b>.<br />• The element carrying the most distinctive information, the <b>day</b>, is in the visually salient first position.<br />....(This is non-optimal for computers and their calculations, but it's just fine for <b>ease of human perception</b>.)<br /><br />The main rival format <i>July 4, 2016</i> has these demerits<br />• The comma as a separator has gone out of favour — especially in the layout of formal correspondence.<br />• The two numerical parts, the <b>day</b> and <b>year</b>, are unnecessarily close to each other.<br />• The heavily information-loaded part, the <b> day </b>, is in probably the least salient position, in the middle of the format.<br /><br />The ordinal markers <b>th/st/nd/rd</b> may, indeed, add redundant information. But in this case the redundancy doesn't make it any easier to read. There's just more visual information to process for no real gain.<br /><br />Mind you, I think it's different matter when I'm writing dates as part of prose sentences. Then I do want the reader to 'aud' (read silently aloud to the inner ear) the spoken format I've chosen. For me, <b>both</b> spoken formats (Americans may have three) involve and ORDINAL. My SPOKEN forms are:<br />1 <i>the </i>ORDINAL<i> of </i> MONTH<br />2 MONTH <i> the </i> ORDINAL<br /><br />So in a prose sentence I might write<br />1 <i>the 4th of July</i><br />2 <i>July the 4th</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-31289046916110302122016-07-05T18:30:37.582+01:002016-07-05T18:30:37.582+01:00With regard to computers, the One True Way to writ...With regard to computers, the One True Way to write dates is in accordance with ISO 8601, which is YYYYMMDD (basic format) or YYYY-MM-DD (enhanced for human readability). <br /><br />The value of doing it this way (and in particular, using leading zeroes and listing the units largest to smallest) is that in this format, sorting dates lexicographically (or numerically, with no separators) gives you exactly the same results as sorting them chronologically.<br /><br />(Of course, that's just how you <i>print</i> dates. Often it's the case that you want to use epoch time internally, where you represent the date as an amount of time elapsed since some starting point, because that makes it easy to do calculations and lets you (mostly) ignore troublesome issues like leap days.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-84107863715046099062016-07-05T17:20:15.914+01:002016-07-05T17:20:15.914+01:00I've lived in the US for (GOOD GRIEF!!!) nearl...I've lived in the US for (GOOD GRIEF!!!) nearly 37 years and I still get caught unawares by dates that could go either way, and I always write the month as a name.richardelguruhttp://howlandbolton.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-55900286214106068332016-07-05T15:15:19.126+01:002016-07-05T15:15:19.126+01:00"There's no particular lack of Americans ..."There's no particular lack of Americans writing '4 July 2016' and such things. It's not the usual way to do it, but it's a common affectation."<br /><br />I got these definitions from the American Heritage Dictionary. Is there another meaning?<br /><br />1. A mannerism or habit that is assumed rather than natural, especially to impress others.<br /><br />2. Behavior characterized by such mannerisms or habits; artificiality: a simpering manner that was mere affectation.<br /><br />It's true I didn't naturally write date-month-year, but without being in the military I discovered it about 35 years ago and found it easier to read at a glance than dates done with numerals and slashes, especially when a handwritten one looks a lot like a slash. So I adopted it myself, but I also write month-date-year, but avoid numerals and slashes. For clarity, not to impress anybody. :-)Steve Dunhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11970801099772755392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-70909737001531668202016-07-05T12:59:59.483+01:002016-07-05T12:59:59.483+01:00CORRECTION
a few spoken congratulations of the ra...CORRECTION<br /><br /><i>a few spoken congratulations of the radio</i><br /><br />Of course not! The radio had done nothing to deserve them. I heard<br /><br /><i>a few spoken congratulations <b>on</b> the radio</i>David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-15502325377518001512016-07-05T12:57:50.573+01:002016-07-05T12:57:50.573+01:00Over the last couple of days, I've heard a few...Over the last couple of days, I've heard a few spoken congratulations of the radio. The format was the one Lynn doesn't mention. (Or have I missed it?)<br /><br /><i>Happy Fourth of July</i>.<br /><br />This is perfectly grammatical for me, although <i>the</i> is (for me) obligatory in<br /><br /><i>Happy July the Fourth</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-12122579427084284792016-07-05T12:32:48.960+01:002016-07-05T12:32:48.960+01:00Looking more closely at the letter of commendation...Looking more closely at the letter of commendation, I see that some of the signatories in the margins were not as punctilious as the chief signatory. Several had the whole date typed. One typed 7th instead of 7. One even used the format <i>12.7:45</i>. <br /><br />Nevertheless, the rules was as I stated. At least that was the rule at the end of last century. Since then, I'm sure the Army has woken up to the implications of universal word-processing and electronically dated document files.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90641066342076837392016-07-05T12:25:24.371+01:002016-07-05T12:25:24.371+01:00In the genealogy world, we are instructed to write...In the genealogy world, we are instructed to write dates in the format 08 October 1915, to avoid misunderstanding.<br /><br />In the 19th and early 20th centuries I find that newspapers in Great Britain and Ireland expressed dates in the format DAILY EXPRESS FRIDAY, OCTOBER 8, 1915 across the centre top of the page. And yes, reports of shipping movements always used the date (8th) with ult. and inst. to save space.<br /><br />Yesterday's newspaper is The Times| Monday July 4 2016 to one side at the top of the page.<br /><br />Of course the most useful way to retain records in a computer is to entitle files with the date in yyyymmdd format, since they will be compiled in a chronological order (or the reverse, so most recent are at the top of the list). I always used this system for recording my experiments, and a friend told me that this is also used in (her department of) the UK Civil Service, for the same reason. It's the Military system but with numbers reversed. biochemistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-43306265029340098832016-07-05T12:22:26.354+01:002016-07-05T12:22:26.354+01:00But, of course, the fifth of November is a very Br...But, of course, the fifth of November is a very British celebration and the date is recorded and remembered in a very British day-month format.<br /><br />If you watch V on 5/11 the allusions are all too frequently lost. Along with exactly why we celebrate someone who didn't manage to blow up parliament...Eloisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00645110245532917138noreply@blogger.com