tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post9039151242166613206..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: seaside diversionslynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-81881463506778732452021-05-28T03:04:44.828+01:002021-05-28T03:04:44.828+01:00“Black as the Earl of Hell’s waistcoat”!
That'...“Black as the Earl of Hell’s waistcoat”!<br />That's terrific. I'm going to start saying it.<br />How did your mum pronounce "waistcoat"?Grhmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-71206099858135399052020-08-13T16:36:37.407+01:002020-08-13T16:36:37.407+01:00BrE (Scot, 60+). As a kid in Scotland, it was alwa...BrE (Scot, 60+). As a kid in Scotland, it was always pail and spade, and always in that order. And like Mrs Redboots, mine were made of painted tin, although the spade had a wooden handle. I can still buy brightly coloured tin pails with plants in them. I have no idea what my nieces/nephews and their king do call these toys.<br /><br />Re black as the ace of spades. My mum’s take on this was “black as the Earl of Hell’s waistcoat”.Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9055097459762579222017-02-01T14:33:50.361+00:002017-02-01T14:33:50.361+00:00I did wonder whether two-syllables + and + one-syl...I did wonder whether two-syllables + and + one-syllable is more euphonic, possibly sounding more like an indivisible unit, than the reverse. A quickly spoken dactyl + a single stressed syllable: DUM-da-da-DUM, versus a slowly spoken anapest + a single unstressed syllable: daa daa DUM da.<br /><br />Some 'irreversible bimomial' (for me) examples involving food: apples and pears, bacon and eggs, sausage and mash, curry and rice, sugar and spice, peaches and cream: all these roll off my tongue more easily than salt and pepper, bread and butter, egg and soldiers. Outside food: pepper-and-salt (hair), Flanders and Swann, nickel-and-dime, Rodgers and Hart, middle and leg (cricket), shampoo and set, rhythm and blues, Calvin and Hobbes, Morecambe and Wise, rabbit and pork (rhyming slang: talk), heaven and earth, mother and child, open-and-shut, trouble and strife. But also noughts and crosses, up-and-coming, hugs and kisses, ball-and-socket, bits and pieces, rough and ready, time and motion, bed and breakfast, belt and braces, cash and carry, free and easy, death and taxes, Marks and Spencer, Queen and country. And of course there are more of both types.<br /><br />So possibly a small role for euphony in creating units; but if there is, I haven't supplied the evidence.KeithDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10451059429340892054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-40967989387458256752014-04-16T02:38:50.550+01:002014-04-16T02:38:50.550+01:00Massachusetts age 25-
In my idiolect I'm comf...Massachusetts age 25-<br /><br />In my idiolect I'm comfortable with any of the 8 combinations for sand castle equipment. As someone else mentioned, I consider them separate items and not a set. Pail or spade are perhaps a slightly more formal or arched register. Oddly though if you use one to fill the other with sand, it becomes a "bucket of sand", but while it's empty I'm content to call it a pail.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02138260302522477243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-80462773353130040202012-08-24T11:16:33.542+01:002012-08-24T11:16:33.542+01:00'The beach' is (or was) a space for 't...<i><b>'The beach'</b></i> is (or was) a space for <i><b>'the family'</b></i> — a unit comprising adults and pre-adolescent children. Teenagers may still enjoy parts of the wider space that is <i><b>'the seaside'</b></i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-79579700084661763542012-08-23T23:00:34.750+01:002012-08-23T23:00:34.750+01:00Ha! Somewhere (but I'm too tired to look for ...Ha! Somewhere (but I'm too tired to look for it (AmE, one of many picked up from my ex) <b>right now</b> I have a photo I took of the lake at Inlet, NY with the lifesaver's chair rising from deep snow with a sign saying "No Swimming when life guard not on duty" (or words to that effect). It was -30°C that day I think, probably the lowest temperature I've ever been exposed to. It was, I admit, a beautiful, still, clear day.enitharmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17829757748223670291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-65613876247109636812012-08-23T22:29:18.971+01:002012-08-23T22:29:18.971+01:00I don't know that it's the location of the...I don't know that it's the location of the beaches that make people blasé about them. I think it's the weather at said beaches. :)<br /><br />In the US, don't forget to count the lakes. I didn't grow up near the ocean, but I did go to sandy beaches on the Great Lakes and even in the Finger Lakes (though those tended to be more woodsy shorelines in most places).lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-80007498974203434952012-08-23T22:27:00.016+01:002012-08-23T22:27:00.016+01:00I'm interested in the position of "the be...I'm interested in the position of "the beach" as a concept in US culture. It seems to me that the US has very much less shoreline relative to population than Britain has, with a significant chunk of its population a very long way from a beach, so it celebrates beach culture more. Is this so?<br /><br />In Britain, most people are within a couple of hours of a beach, so we become blasé about it, and in our usual way make self-deprecating jokes about it: the cold, the rain, the deckchairs and knotted handkerchieves on pink and peeling heads (I'm looking at you, Ginger Yellow!). As it happens I'm a ten-minute cycle ride from my local beach and I love it in all its moods but I especially love it on a warm summer evening when I can go and swim from somewhere along the 15 km of gently-shelving sand with nobody else in sight until gone 11 pm. But hey, I'm weird, you wouldn't like it at all, don't come and spoil it please!<br />enitharmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17829757748223670291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-33609365752400924922012-08-23T22:03:42.458+01:002012-08-23T22:03:42.458+01:00As a child in NW England I encountered the word &q...As a child in NW England I encountered the word "pail", sometimes in the context of "pail and spade", in books passed on to me by grandparents who had acquired them before WW2 probably from being "in service". When I asked, my parents suggested that the word was used in the south, although I didn't really have much idea of "south" until we moved there when I was 11. Before that I think I believed that going anywhere beyond Chester Zoo would result in falling off the edge.<br /><br />Having moved south I never did hear the word pail used, although I got a nasty shock, and the most brutal of elocution lessons form my new contemporaries (it was considered scintillating to get me to say "potato puffs"). I suppose "pail" is a world that just dropped out of BrE usage.enitharmonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17829757748223670291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-29322015649924419872012-07-11T14:15:03.544+01:002012-07-11T14:15:03.544+01:00"Bucket and spade" goes back at least to..."Bucket and spade" goes back at least to my childhood in the 1950s.<br /><br />Someone mentioned "Jack and Jill", but the nursery rhyme that had come to my mind was<br />Simple Simon went a-fishing<br />For to catch a whale,<br />But all the water he could get<br />Was in his mother's pail.<br /><br />I would normally call the item a bucket, but the word "pail" is perfectly familiar to me.<br /><br />Kate (Derby, UK)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90793391005339080432012-02-10T07:58:24.191+00:002012-02-10T07:58:24.191+00:00after thinking it over, I can think of examples of...after thinking it over, I can think of examples of metal pails (ie a milking pail for milking cows), so ignore the plastic bit in my previous comment.Geckohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723659901509670594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-71907142409793765272012-02-09T20:58:57.092+00:002012-02-09T20:58:57.092+00:00for what's it worth, to my, (mostly* AmE ears)...for what's it worth, to my, (mostly* AmE ears) a pail could be defined as a "small(ish) plastic bucket"<br />*=I say mostly because I grew up code switching between American English & Modern Hawaiian Pidgin English.<br /><br />PS Ginger Yellow's comment made me laugh.Geckohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723659901509670594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-62774468293386509382010-05-23T08:54:53.685+01:002010-05-23T08:54:53.685+01:00Just as a note on the racist use of spade (comes f...Just as a note on the racist use of spade (comes from the black of the card suit) - a friend of mine owned a pub in the south of England, decorated with many old ale making implements and memorabilia, including a malt shovel with quite a pointed end which was slung from the ceiling. The building was an old one, hence the ceiling was pretty low, with beams. A very tall coloured gentleman entered the bar and without thinking, the landlord yelled "Mind the spade!" Fortunately the gentleman had a sense of humour and was happy to join in the laughter of the rest of the patrons, as my friend was still sputtering that he was talking about the pointy shovel. I also regard a spade as a flat bladed cutting and digging implement, whereas a shovel is more likely to have a curved blade or curved edges to the blade, to be used for moving stuff.Discodorishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00288398594741746818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-82800882670925729132009-08-29T02:19:12.225+01:002009-08-29T02:19:12.225+01:00A long time ago when I was a teenager and gaining ...A long time ago when I was a teenager and gaining an interest in philology (yep! I was *that* geeky, but still managed to go out with girls!) I read a book which explained isoglosses. One example used was the 'pail/bucket' term isogloss running across the island of Britain, north and west of which they tended to find 'pail' as the preferred term (if I remember correctly). [Lynne - perhaps you might know what the book might have been? Could it have been Bodmer/Hogben?]<br /><br />Obviously the research that established this isoglottic line must have been done some years before, perhaps in the 1920s, and BrE has moved on since then: I'm guessing that 'bucket' has won the day in Britain.Howardhttp://www.ukusforum.com/index.phpnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-80198072981676513132009-08-28T23:23:49.264+01:002009-08-28T23:23:49.264+01:00Growing up on the U.S. West Coast, we always refer...Growing up on the U.S. West Coast, we always referred to any digging implement with a two-handed handle as a "shovel" - spade seems arcane to my ears, and there's the previously-noted added sensitivity around its usage being inadvertantly perceived as a racist slur. And we never used the term "pail" except in reciting the Jack & Jill rhyme. So it was buckets and shovels all around, as it were.<br /><br />And note to Ginger Yellow: The beach experience in northern California and up through the Pacific Northwest is much more akin to the British experience you cite. The water temperature averages 10 degrees Celsius / 50 degrees Farenheit, so swimming (at least without benefit of a wetsuit) is generally left to the macho and the inebriated.darcherdnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-89004183598935788152009-08-28T04:55:31.036+01:002009-08-28T04:55:31.036+01:00ok my last post on the subject- when I googled &qu...ok my last post on the subject- when I googled "sand bucket," I found an advertisement for a "tin pail sand bucket." "Sand bucket" tells us what it is, but we can't call it a bucket because it is made of metal!<br /><br /> http://cgi.ebay.com/Summer-June-Vintage-Tin-Pail-Sand-Bucket_W0QQitemZ290331492277QQcmdZViewItemBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12041818072916522912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-29660158114992449192009-08-28T04:47:19.300+01:002009-08-28T04:47:19.300+01:00I just showed my (Minnesotan) roommate the sea-toy...I just showed my (Minnesotan) roommate the sea-toy image, and she also said it was a "sandbucket and shovel." She also said a difference between buckets and pails is that pails have to have a handle, and buckets do not. The container in the image has no handle, so it "can't be a pail."Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12041818072916522912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-85443763004436463912009-08-28T04:34:26.171+01:002009-08-28T04:34:26.171+01:00I'm from Minnesota (Upper Midwest American Eng...I'm from Minnesota (Upper Midwest American English dialect). I would call the first toy a "pinwheel." I would call the second set a "sandbucket and shovel." For me, a shovel and a spade are pretty much interchangeable, but I prefer "shovel" for some reason. Also, in my dialect, a container that shape made of plastic is definitely a "bucket", but made out of metal it is a "pail." A toy bucket like that is a "sandbucket," just to emphasize that it is a toy, I think.Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12041818072916522912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-37991593259844317072009-08-27T18:12:02.469+01:002009-08-27T18:12:02.469+01:00Yes please - something on swimwear. I've only ...Yes please - something on swimwear. I've only recently (BrE) been exposed to budgie smugglers and am still chortling.jpeepsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-8482213988651957092009-08-27T17:31:57.759+01:002009-08-27T17:31:57.759+01:00I'm with biochemist on 'whirligig'. Ho...I'm with biochemist on 'whirligig'. Housewives' term for a rotary clothesline.<br /><br />Can we have a new topic for swimwear please Lynneguist? I'm quite intrigued.<br /><br />Re: Bucket and Spade, there was a series of English children's books so called based around some sort of seaside establishment (I think it was a village shop/general store) about fifteen-twenty years ago/. Not entirely rleevant, but they may have been a contributary factor in the binominality of the phrase amongst twenty-something BrE speakers. Or, of course, not, as the case may indeed be.Solonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-58921732277724894382009-08-27T13:58:26.018+01:002009-08-27T13:58:26.018+01:00If you buy a spade or a shovel at a hardware or ga...If you buy a spade or a shovel at a hardware or garden shop in the UK, they will each have a straight end to the blade (and can be fairly sharp!). I was going to remark that I have never seen a blade shaped like the card suit, but perhaps builders use them when making concrete, or mortar on a board? Building sites seem to be less open to view nowadays... Another UK-US distinction is that British spades and shovels almost universally have a cross-piece or a D-shaped handle at the top, while US implements often have a straight shaft only.<br /><br />And I have heard 'whirlygig' used for a rotary clothesline - I guess the word covers anything that goes round in the wind.biochemistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-25947547833098092952009-08-27T12:07:54.157+01:002009-08-27T12:07:54.157+01:00Pail seems a rather archaic, literary word in UK E...Pail seems a rather archaic, literary word in UK English. Perhaps it comes up more in regional dialect.Coal Porternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-68620202775534292682009-08-27T04:32:30.280+01:002009-08-27T04:32:30.280+01:00On Blue's Clues the characters "Shovel an...On Blue's Clues the characters "Shovel and Pail" are always referred to that way, never as "Pail and Shovel".<br /><br />Which is interesting, because I'd never use the word pail even for the sand toy, I'd *always* call it a bucket or (to differentiate) a sand bucket. I wonder if that's typical of NYC, come to think....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-28960431292208169692009-08-26T22:01:27.109+01:002009-08-26T22:01:27.109+01:00Lynneguist: I'm wondering whether my current p...Lynneguist: <i>I'm wondering whether my current preference for 'shovel and pail' rather than 'pail and shovel' is influenced by the syllable pattern in 'bucket and spade'.</i><br /><br />Did you notice that in that order, the vowels are almost identical too (at least in AmE)? Interesting coincidence!Rick Snoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-61267717106362523342009-08-26T16:43:12.554+01:002009-08-26T16:43:12.554+01:00In the northern US, we tend to think of shovels as...In the northern US, we tend to think of shovels as implements for moving snow. The blades are wide and straight. I agree with mamunipsaq that I'd use <i>spade</i> for something with a pointed end--just because of the similarity with the card suit.<br /><br />To me, a whirligig has two blades, not four. But Google Images shows lots of cases of the term used to mean 'pinwheel/windmill'.<br /><br />I'm wondering whether my current preference for 'shovel and pail' rather than 'pail and shovel' is influenced by the syllable pattern in 'bucket and spade'. <br /><br />I'm not getting into the swimwear discussion as that's too much for a comments section!lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.com