tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post9116252641375374890..comments2024-03-16T00:21:43.240+00:00Comments on Separated by a Common Language: jail, gaol and prisonlynneguisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comBlogger70125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-80941438914283398742022-12-15T00:25:28.418+00:002022-12-15T00:25:28.418+00:00to Zouk.
'Chor' (as I would probably spel...to Zouk.<br /><br />'Chor' (as I would probably spell it) is pure urdu/panjabi for thief, and most likely entered the language via the British army in India. I do remember phrases like 'who's chorred me pen' from my schooldays.John Duffynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-72052836026739933242022-12-15T00:19:14.251+00:002022-12-15T00:19:14.251+00:00My understanding is that the cell-block in a large...My understanding is that the cell-block in a large police station is called the Bridewell: I know that Leeds has one. They're named, as you say, after the original prison in Bridewell, London.<br /><br />Then there's porridge, stir, a stretch, etc.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-20856986390459228622022-12-12T21:43:10.859+00:002022-12-12T21:43:10.859+00:00Americans sometimes use "pokie" for jail...Americans sometimes use "pokie" for jail. As in, "He's in the pokie for 90 days." (Note the "the.") Sounds a bit like "choky." đAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-38948276665192440632022-11-17T12:16:03.887+00:002022-11-17T12:16:03.887+00:00I am in the âMidlandsâ UK and have always heard &a...I am in the âMidlandsâ UK and have always heard & used the word Clink. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-3391724564411350722022-07-20T03:08:42.891+01:002022-07-20T03:08:42.891+01:00Her majestyâs pleasure was only used for prisoners...Her majestyâs pleasure was only used for prisoners who had no idea when they would be released, usually a murderer and was kept until her or his majesty signed them outAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-66956418021276458622019-07-27T13:04:53.220+01:002019-07-27T13:04:53.220+01:00BrE, Scot. In my dialect, jail has the PRICE vowel...BrE, Scot. In my dialect, jail has the PRICE vowel. The term âflyâ, meaning cunning or devious, used to be widely used in the term âfly as a jailerâ. As is common in the US, we tend to say âin the hospitalâ, and would also say âin the jailâ, but I donât think Iâve ever heard âin THE prisonâ. Glasgowâs main prison, Barlinnie, is often referred to as âthe Bar-Lâ, reflecting a tradional Scottish love of cowboy books and films. Less pleasantly, throughout the UK, underage girls are referred to as âjail baitâ.Shy-replyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01891566073375322808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-33190790949286808242016-12-02T15:09:05.669+00:002016-12-02T15:09:05.669+00:00And it is now open as a museum. Not as scary as th...And it is now open as a museum. Not as scary as the London Dungeon, but similar idea. it's on the south bank of the Thames in London. <br />http://www.clink.co.uk<br />Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14572917944170839825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-2130608926350782852016-07-16T17:20:15.570+01:002016-07-16T17:20:15.570+01:00Very interesting!
I (an American) have also used j...Very interesting!<br />I (an American) have also used jail and prison interchangeably, though more timidly since one of my friends who has been scolded me for getting it wrong once (but without explaining what the difference was, so I didn't know until reading this blog).<br />I also had no idea that gaol was pronounced the same as jail (these days anyway). I was always a bit troubled in my mental pronunciation, figuring something between "goal" and "gull".Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15982265901788344812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-64606559051400063392016-06-25T02:19:06.673+01:002016-06-25T02:19:06.673+01:00To Zouk Delors,
"chor" because my Pakis...To Zouk Delors,<br /><br />"chor" because my Pakistani/Kashmiri pupils, from whom I learnt the usage, pronounce it "chorr", with a short trill at the end, almost as we would say "brrr" when cold. <br /><br />One of my former pupils, for instance, was known as "Sajid Chorr" by the local community, because of his thieving habits.<br /><br />Growing up in the north-east of England, we had the word "chor", to rhyme with "core", as in "Who's chorred me pencil?"John Duffynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-9051895959630364892016-06-06T13:40:14.598+01:002016-06-06T13:40:14.598+01:00Thanks for your reply Lynneguist.
/Beata (BW)Thanks for your reply Lynneguist.<br /><br />/Beata (BW)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-90359043500096843462016-06-05T19:06:22.629+01:002016-06-05T19:06:22.629+01:00John Duffy
Probably a good guess about the origin...John Duffy<br /><br />Probably a good guess about the origin of what I've spelt <i>chaw</i> (and previously had envisoned as <i>chore</i>). Any particular reason you write what you say is Urdu/Punjabi as <i>chor</i>? Presumably when it's written in one of those languages our alphabet isn't used?<br /><br />bratschegirl<br />As I explained above, <i>at Her Majesty's pleasure</i> is a legal term for a very specific type of indeterminate sentence of imprisonment. You do, however, sometimes hear the direct equivalent of your phrase: a guest of Her Majesty.<br /><br />Of course there is also the simple <i>inside</i> for "in prison", which I imagine is probably current in the US (and elsewhere) too. Also here in England, a prisoner refers to his life outside prison as life <i>on the out</i>.Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-36027565876872771362016-06-05T01:06:19.688+01:002016-06-05T01:06:19.688+01:00In the US, there's also the sarcastically euph...In the US, there's also the sarcastically euphemistic "guest of the State," which seems similar to the British "at Her/His Majesty's pleasure."bratschegirlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-36060083236098963042016-05-20T22:18:06.734+01:002016-05-20T22:18:06.734+01:00As an American Westerner (California), I'd lea...As an American Westerner (California), I'd learned <i>hoosegow</i> when I was very young, probably from TV Westerns, but didn't encounter <i>gaol</i> until I was in my teens and discovered Oscar Wilde's "The Ballad of Reading Gaol." The title utterly confused me; I thought it had something to do with reading (a book? a poem?), and that <i>gaol</i> might be a Hebrew word, pronounced <i>ga-OHL</i>.Nancyhttp://nancyfriedman.typepad.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-61055031844680957762016-05-19T15:15:36.763+01:002016-05-19T15:15:36.763+01:00Laurie
Strictly speaking, being "banged up&q...Laurie<br /><br />Strictly speaking, being "banged up" means being locked in a cell. So if you're in the exercise yard or have the run of the wing for any reason, you're not banged up. Conversely, if for reasons of security, discipline or otherwise you are confined to your cell all day (except for the obligatory 1hr exercise allowed per day in the UK) you're "on bang-up".Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-89880328611432177892016-05-18T23:10:51.639+01:002016-05-18T23:10:51.639+01:00"Chor", interestingly, is Urdu/Punjabi f... "Chor", interestingly, is Urdu/Punjabi for "thief". I guess it entered BrEnglish via the British Army, as did many other words from Indian languages.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17149914294721751231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-67459163027792071112016-05-18T18:24:43.518+01:002016-05-18T18:24:43.518+01:00I would add "banged up" for the UK, and ...I would add "banged up" for the UK, and "in the joint" for the US.Laurienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-60397208186139880572016-05-17T16:54:28.776+01:002016-05-17T16:54:28.776+01:00Another term from an actual gaol is jug. Newgate P...Another term from an actual gaol is <i>jug</i>. Newgate Prison in London was known as the Stone Jug, a nickname used by Dickens in Oliver Twist.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-74837832025328648142016-05-17T16:15:35.930+01:002016-05-17T16:15:35.930+01:00When I looked up hoosegow it should have occurred ...When I looked up <i>hoosegow</i> it should have occurred to me to look up the so-much-more-familiar <i>calaboose</i>.<br /><br />Like <i>clink</i> and <i>bridewell</i>, this proves to be the name of an actual jail. This one was located in New Orleans and bore this Louisiana Creole name, derived from Spanish <i>calabozo</i> meaning 'dungeon'.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-32427210993799604772016-05-17T15:15:04.916+01:002016-05-17T15:15:04.916+01:00Another old Br term for prison/gaol is jug.
Doing...Another old Br term for prison/gaol is <i>jug</i>.<br /><br />Doing "porridge" is more used by the general population (influenced by the TV sitcom, maybe?) than by prisoners these days (it's about 20 years since the traditional prison breakfast was replaced by a small box of breakfast cereal and a pack of UHT milk). Doing <i>bird</i> is used much more (from rhyming slang for <i>time</i>: bird lime).<br /><br />Also common amongst prisoners is <i>chaw</i>. Like <i>nick</i>, this can also mean steal or arrest. E.g. "I chawed a video but got chawed and ended up in chaw".<br /><br /><i>At Her Majesty's pleasure</i>, although often used by the general public facetiously/euphemisticly, is in fact -- as Wikipedia notes -- a legal term of art referring to indefinite imprisonment, when one is literally held as long as it pleases HM['s Govt].<br /><br />Incidentally prison-for-profit is also big in the UK now, with consequent deterioration of conditions. The profiteers are all the usual suspects: Serco, G4S etc etc.<br /><br />*I used to think this was spelt CHORE when I'd only ever heard it, but I think I've seen it spelt like this by slangist <a href="http://jonathongreen.co.uk/" rel="nofollow"> Jonathon Green</a>.Zouk Delorshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07983226210415857258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-44242923155036989772016-05-17T13:08:05.853+01:002016-05-17T13:08:05.853+01:00I take the OED to be saying that there were, in ef...I take the OED to be saying that there were, in effect, two words in Middle English, which they number 1) and 2)...<br /><br />1) This was the Norman word. There were five basic spellings, plus some variations, but all began <i>ga-</i> and ended in <i>-ll</i> or <i>-le</i>. In between some spellings had <i>-i-</i> and many had <i>-o-</i>.<br /><br />It seems evident that pronunciations must have included <b>gajol, gail</b> and <b>gahol</b>. The second of these survived in Early Modern English with the spelling <i>gaille</i>, but disappeared in the sixteenth century. The third survived with the spelling <i>gaol</i> before also disappearing as a pronunciation. But the spelling <i>gaol</i> persisted.<br /><br />2) This was the French word. Again the spellings point to various pronunciations: early <b>ʤajol</b> and <b>ʤaol</b> leading to modern <b>Ęeol</b>. Middle English spelling followed the French convention of letter-J for <b>ʤ</b> before letter-A, letter-O and letter-U. By the same convention, letter-G before these letters represented <b>g</b>.<br /><br />In Middle English (though apparently not in French) there was a pronunciation without an O-sound, deducible from the spellings <i>jayle , jaile , jail</i>. The latter spelling became standardised and retained when the sound represented by <i>-ai-</i> changed to its modern value.<br /><br />The OED is saying, I think, that word 1) disappeared from the spoken language, but left an enduring spelling in the written language.<br /><br />When I say 'two words', I don't mean that any given speaker would have two related words for the same concept, just that different speakers said and wrote different things.<br /><br />Take Shakespeare. It seems incredible that he though of more than one word. Yet according to David Crustal's new Dictionary of Original Shakespearian Pronunciation, he â or rather his publishers â used the spellings <i>goal</i> and <i>iaille</i>. And we can tell which pronunciation he preferred from Sonnet 133<br /><br />But then my friend's heart let my poor heart bail<br />Who e'er keeps me, let my heart be his guard; <br />Thou canst not then use rigour in my jail/gaol. <br />And yet thou wilt, for I, being pent in thee, <br />Perforce am thine, and all that is in me.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-32001237169189082422016-05-17T10:19:11.802+01:002016-05-17T10:19:11.802+01:00That confused me too, Anonymous. They give no indi...That confused me too, Anonymous. They give no indication of another pronunciation.lynneguisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10171345732985610861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-24126134821312918752016-05-17T09:51:24.393+01:002016-05-17T09:51:24.393+01:00Just a curiosity question concerning the OED defin...Just a curiosity question concerning the OED definition & its phrasing. How can gaol be "obsolete in the SPOKEN language, where the surviving word is jail" if the pronunciation of both words is the same? Also, "both forms gaol, jail, are still written, only the latter is spoken". Does it mean that they actually had a different pronunciation back in the days?<br /><br />BWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-44799971206147544382016-05-15T23:40:56.516+01:002016-05-15T23:40:56.516+01:00Interesting, David. I too was a fan of Billy Cott...Interesting, David. I too was a fan of Billy Cotton in those days - watched his Saturday night TV show and listened to his Sunday lunchtime radio show.<br /><br />I suspect, however, that the recording we had must have been American performers, though. But it was over fifty years ago now. My father had a huge collection of old 78s. I wonder how many of them have survived. My sister has them now.<br /><br />One of the other records we had was a song called Ali Baba's Camel, also from the thirties, I believe. It was only many years later that I discovered that the Bonzos did a cover of this in the sixties, which I don't think I've ever heard.Paul Dormerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00611343972547300193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-43303172352650197522016-05-15T22:55:13.212+01:002016-05-15T22:55:13.212+01:00In my experience, "brig" was a naval-onl...In my experience, "brig" was a naval-only term. At least in movies depicting US Army matters up to WWII, the term used was "stockade". I was in the US Air Force for 9 years, but have no idea what the of foal term was--but we never called it the brig or the stockade. Kirk Poorenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28787909.post-21329280668390970162016-05-15T22:45:30.818+01:002016-05-15T22:45:30.818+01:00Vague memory of Lee Marvin on Terry Wogan's ch...Vague memory of Lee Marvin on Terry Wogan's chat show in the UK in the 1980s, referring to being "in goal". My assumption was that he was doing a translation to British English, thought that "gaol" was needed, but wasn't sure of the pronunciation.Paul Baileyhttp://northgare.netnoreply@blogger.com